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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:16 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

This has been tormenting me for some time now, over a year. As bird hunters we all have species we love and adore, many of them that are not native to our neck of the woods. Three prime examples are pheasants, chukars, and huns. I think a little emphasis needs to be placed on the concept of "non-native beneficial species". Why? Well folks, there is a foul wind blowing in the American west these days.

The big problem we have out here is that the label "non-native invasive species" is being slapped on any and everything that certain government officials don't like or don't want to continue dealing with. Our game departments have become chief offenders. This label "non-native invasive species" is being used to justify any and all ploys that are not in the best interest of outdoorsman and these efforts are being shoehorned in with legitimate invasive species programs.

Examples? In Colorado, northern pike and smallmouth bass are being exterminated wholesale in the name of promoting 4 species of native non game species that most anglers view as being as desirable as carp.

On the game bird front, we have had a small scale war on Russian Olives going in Wyoming. Unfortunately, this is the most valuable winter habitat we have for a number of game and non game species. My complaints have fallen on deaf ears.

Now, the newest big "threat" where I live is cheatgrass. The BLM and local Weed and Pest Department have teamed up with them and are spraying cheatgrass behind the town I live in. I hunt chukars there. Without cheatgrass our chukars die, period. Huns utilize cheatgrass heavily in Wyoming as well. When I confronted one of the local biologists I pointed out that they are destroying critical habitat for a bird that we hunt for 5 months (chukars and huns). He looked me in the eye and said "They're non-native" and dismissed it at that! He asked me if I had seen how widespread cheatgrass "had become" in Nevada. I told him that yes I have and it looks exactly the same as I remember in the 1980's. I didn't tell him that as a young chukar hunter I nearly drooled my way across that state. I do get along with him well and didn't want to turn the discussion sour. My respect for him has waned though. Disappointment does that.

Anyway, people like this are altering the future of what we will hunt and many now view non-natives as completely disposable. If we don't promote the value of our favorite birds and the importance of their needed habitats, we will suffer the consequences. History records that there once was an all out war on sage brush 100 years ago and there were plenty of justifications then too. We of course know that that was a mistake, now that we look back. I fear we are just repeating sins long past.

I wish I knew where to go with this and what my most effective role would be. Thankfully, Pheasants Forever exists. Unfortunately, to my knowledge, there is no "Partridge Forever" to advocate healthy populations of chukar and Hungarian partridges. Sigh. Surely others care as well Any thoughts? Am I the last of a dying breed?

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Cheyenne08
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:59 pm  Reply with quote
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You are correct, I suspect this wrong headed policy is coming from Washington. I sure hope it isn't the WYGFD!

Russian Olive is the best pheasant windbreak, I have hunted them since I was a kid.
Seems they never die, and handle the harsh winds of winter here in Wyoming.

I called the state foresters' office in Cheyenne a few years ago and asked where I could get Russian Olives to plant..you would have thought I was asking for access to heroin!

I wanted to get a bunch to plant for a windbreak, I was told by some arrogant kid that they were considered an "invasive species", and should be eradicated.

What about of getting rid of lake trout in Yellowstone lake to make room for the "Native" cutthroat?

Natural doesn't always mean "best".

Dale

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:09 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

You are not even allowed to plant the things around here anymore! WYG&F is behind some of it too. They spent several years uprooting Russian Olives on the Yellowtail Habitat Management Area. They plant pen raised birds there which is fine, but wild birds could live there too if their chief food source was still available.

Yellowstone Lake? You may be old enough to remember the news release; some of the old timers here used to point out that there was a rearing pond in one of the tributaries to Yellowstone Lake that was being used to hold Lake Trout/Macs. In the 1950's the dam broke during high spring runoff and the fish washed downstream. Nobody illegally introduced Lake trout into Yellowstone.

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Cheyenne08
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:46 pm  Reply with quote
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I am old enough to remember, by far, but just never heard of the 1950's accidental introduction of the lake trout. They thrived, are a wonderful game fish, so what is their problem with them, other than they are not "Native"?

Yeah, can't plant Russian Olives here anymore either, they make too much sense! Wink

Dale

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df
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:11 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 01 Oct 2007
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Location: Minnesota

What’s the problem with this plant other than being non native?
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:11 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

WYOChukar,

I have no skin in the game in your state, however I am for any type of cover that aids in growing game bird populations whether it is native of not.

Here in Pa we have lost our once great wild Pheasant Program due mostly to politics and changing habitat/farming practices.

Maybe it's time for you western bird hunters to set up a new organization similar to RGS for Huns and Chukar, maybe you can get Pheasant Forever to help you out. Unfortunately I do believe you will have a hard time setting something up.

You are not the last of a dying breed, unfortunately your over all numbers were not very large to begin with, which is actually the real problem.

Good luck

Pine Creek/Dave

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fourtrax
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:33 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Jun 2009
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Location: N. Shore, mn

The non native label also gives the State Game agencies an excuse to budget money elsewhere than managing for habitat etc for the Phez, Huns, etc.

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Byron Whitlock
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:58 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 27 Jan 2016
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Location: Oswego, Kansas

The state game and fish agencies don't seem to realize that the most popular game birds are non native species and they raise millions of dollars each year for the states from out of state hunters coming to hunt them.
Many states rely on this money to operate.
The money issue was what caused Kansas to open deer hunting to out of state hunters a few years back when it had been residents only for many years.

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Riflemeister
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:34 am  Reply with quote
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You'll know there is no political agenda in eliminating non-native species when they decide to wipe out the mustang herds. This whole issue smacks of anti-hunters.

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Riflemeister
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:35 am  Reply with quote
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You'll know there is no political agenda in eliminating non-native species when they decide to wipe out the mustang herds. This whole issue smacks of anti-hunters.

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nwmac
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:59 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Apr 2015
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Here in eastern Washington Russian Olive is deemed an invasive too. Quail love this shrub/tree, but there is a move to eradicate it. I have also seen excellent examples of 'native' plantings to form wind breaks or hedge rows made up of several species of plants. These include wild rose, junipers, hawthorns, etc.. and the birds use them for cover and food. My thought on this issue is to try and work with the state to encourage replanting of native plants that chukar and huns like, wherever they remove 'non-natives' and remind them that hunter revenue contributes a huge percentage to conservation of our natural environments. That might give us a win-win. The cheat grass issue is a tough one because I believe it has an impact on agriculture and that is a big lobby. The only non-native bird species I know of that the state wants to control is the Eurasian Dove (year round season, no limits), again due to its impact on agriculture. Its a long term effort, but it may pay off for the future of our sport.
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WVbirdman
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:19 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Jun 2018
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Location: SC

Riflemeister wrote:
You'll know there is no political agenda in eliminating non-native species when they decide to wipe out the mustang herds. This whole issue smacks of anti-hunters.


Yep. If they hadn't planted these on the surface mine reclaims in my home state of WV, I doubt we would have a huntable population of Ruffed Grouse at all these days. It's a lifeline. Politicians push whatever agenda pays best in most cases. Call that cynicism or whatever you like, but I prefer to just call it the truth.
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Cheyenne08
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:02 pm  Reply with quote
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df wrote:
What’s the problem with this plant other than being non native?


df, I was just told it was "invasive", the best I can determine is they think it kills off native trees/shrubs.

Now out here on the bald assed prairie where I live there is no other "Native" species for Russian Olive to kill off, that's why I wanted to plant them for a WINDBREAK. There was nothing but prairie grass there to stop the wind.

You might as well urinate into the wind, as to try to inform bureaucrats that, they know best, and consider you an uninformed boob!

Public servants my ass! They treat you like they are your master. Rolling Eyes

Dale

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tramroad28
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:22 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

Hopefully, habitat considerations go beyond birdhunting benefits....otherwise we miss enlisting folks to a cause that can benefit us all.
CRP and set asides, for example, need promoted not because they make for great hunting opportunities but because they, as with CREP, can make for cleaner water.
More hands help.

I have heard that cheat grass has a much different root system than native species.....making water retention, nutrients, etc. reaching less deep into the soil. One benefit of the pre-plow days was the developed deep root system of native prairie grasses...ie dust bowl.
If cheat becomes a mono-culture, one that easily burns.....that may well be a bad thing beyond limited hunting anecdotes and personal success.

Same for some stuff planted on reclaimed coal lands. The ruffed grouse do not need or benefit from easy-to-grow, grow-on-a-sandrock plants. They need early successional forest and diversity...that is largely absent with MTR or other reclaimed coal areas....the benefit re coal can indeed be high from edge and other early less efficient recovery efforts...not from mono-cultures or an invasion of plants like the bush honeysuckle varietals causing so many problems today.
Ruffed grouse need chainsaws...not brush cutters and bush hogs.

There can be a sad political bent re habitat and critters, as with the silly wolf and elk reintroductions or with elk, introductions, but I am not at all sure that chukar hunting is a swell trade-off to an ever-increasing presence of cheatgrass.
There can also be some impractical decisions re what helps today....but, watch getting what you are wishing for! Idea

Birdhunters will be best helped, imo, by wise decisions of a nature beyond our own front bead.
Otherwise, we can accurately come across as selfish and self-focused......image matters in the real world of trying to advance proper management Habitat downward.
First comes Habitat, then the Hunted and lastly the Hunter.....change that order of importance and you can end up with many of the problems with habitat and hunting which we see today.
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goathoof
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:37 pm  Reply with quote
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Cheatgrass is a mixed bag on my ranch. My cows do eat it when it is green or brown. They will eat it especially when the crested wheat turns brown. Crested wheat has more nutrition but when the seeds are dry they are not pleasant for cow mouths. So cheatgrass is a primary source for many cattle herds. I have plenty of natural grasses also, but trying to eradicate cheat grass would be futile out here. The big problem we have is medusa head rye. I could hire 100 men to spray to kill it and it would take several months to do it all. And then in two to three years it would be back from adjacent wind blown infestations. I cannot imagine any way to rid a state of cheat grass.
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