16ga.com Forum Index
Author Message
<  16ga. General Discussion  ~  Bears and Bird Dogs
WyoChukar
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:31 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

I wouldn't worry about bear spray while bird hunting. The idea of dropping the gun that is already in your hands to fumble for a canister during a high speed charge by a grizzly is folly. You only have time to use the shotgun. Two thoughts on that. First, at the distance that bear spray is effective, an ounce of shot in the face will hurt just as bad. Second, a bear without eyes will have a tough time catching you.

Wolves were mentioned. I would worry far more about them, as far as your dog is concerned. They will hunt and kill the dog. Killing smaller canines is one of the things they do. There is a reason that the coyote population plummeted in Yellowstone once wolves were brought in. How far your dog ranges will determine a lot. If you can see the dog all the time, you can fend off wolves. If you track the dog by satellite, that's a bigger risk since by time you could help, it may be too late.

The best gear gun? I stay away from those online arguments. Large bore with 00 buckshot was proven long ago, but who has time to switch loads during a charge? I don't.

Ironically, the best defense against a grizzly is a dog...a well trained healer that is. My dad and his buddy Dick used to guide elk hunters on USFS lands very near Yellowstone (7 miles). Bears in camp were rather common, both species. Dick's dog Dusty, a Blue Healer ran the bears off with a vengeance. How? A bear can't reach behind itself. A healer will nip the bear's heals relentlessly until it flees out of desperation. Dusty saved them from having to go to court over shooting a grizzly bear a few times. In court these days, you're probably better off having killed a man than a grizzly bear.

Consider your variables and if you go, enjoy your journey. Don't forget the photos either!

_________________
Only catch snowflakes on your tongue AFTER the birds fly south for the winter...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bret
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:17 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Dec 2017
Posts: 87
Location: Northern Utah

The comments some of you have made about having time to pull a pistol or put slugs in your gun are real. There is no way you pull it off unless you are William H Bonnie or something.

Several years ago while hunting pheasants with a young setter who was more enthusiasm than brains I had an experience that I will never forget. I was hunting a long narrow draw that had tall grass in the bottom of it. At the end of the draw, there was an electric fence across it cutting off the lower portion just before it opened up into a large valley. The grass was all grazed out beyond the fence. As I could hear the dog working back and forth in the heavy grass I husstled quietly to the end so I could look down that grazed out edge for birds that might be trying to escape on foot. I was standing on the grazed side of that electric fence looking down that edge when I heard a commotion in the tall grass. It was maybe 40 yards away and was headed toward the fence. I expected to see a mule deer run out but as it broke free from the grass I could clearly see it was a lion. It hit that edge, went over the fence, and turned 90 degrees straight toward me. At the time I did not know what was going on. I assumed it was lunch time, and I was on the menu. I raised my bird gun and drew a bead on its head. The lion was getting close fast. I remember the thought ran through my head to let him get close so I would have the best chance to blow up his head. Just as that thought hit my mind I saw my young setter in pursuit of the cat right on his tail. I was just tightening my finger on the trigger when the cat went up one of the only trees in the area about 10 yards from me. My dog thought he had done something really special. lol He was really proud of himself as he ran past the cat in the tree and started to me. The fool!

I was very calm during the charge itself and I am proud of that. But I am telling you, as soon as the danger was over and the cat was in a tree the adrenaline hit me like a truck. I got dizzy and I could hardly walk. As I stood there shaking with my eyes still on the cat. I radioed my wife who was some distance away running her dog and she reminded me to take a picture. I was too amped up to think of something like that.

That all happened in a couple of seconds maybe 3 at the most and I think 3 seconds is generous. I had a sidearm but there was no time to pull it. Like WYOChukar stated I would have been a fool to drop the gun in my hand to fumble with another one that I might not get out in time. I'm better with a bird gun anyway and was surprisingly confident under that stress. Until after.lol

6 years have passed since that episode and I have had lots of time to think about it. I know now that the cat didn't even know I was there and was just trying to get away from the dog. I am grateful for that tree it saved both he and I a lot of grief. The one thing that keeps going through my mind is just how fast it all took place and how little time there was to react to the situation. I had at least 30 yards to react. I think that is a lot more than I would have had if he was hunting me. I am confident I could have killed that cat at close range with a centered upload birdshot to the head

If it was a grizzly? Well yeah, I guess give it a face full of 5s or 6s or Whatever is in your gun at close range and hope for the best. I just don't know. I hope none of us ever have to deal with that.

I could post that picture of the cat but I would have to deal with the whole third-party posting thing. I haven't done that in years.

_________________
Bret



https://bretwonnacott.com/
A Millionaire's Dream - a novel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Riflemeister
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:07 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 27 Jun 2012
Posts: 1111

Thanks for all your responses. You've all given me a lot to think about. My dogs respond well to a tone on the Garmin Alpha, so I can easily keep them closer than the 300-400 yards they seem comfortable with on those open prairies. In heavier cover, they naturally hunt closer which is comforting. I think a lot depends on the situation I'm faced with, but out west I hunt with Fiocchi Golden Pheasant, #6's for Huns and sharptail and #5's for pheasants. My bear spray should arrive tomorrow (not available locally in the Ozarks), and any shooting to deter a bear attack will likely be with a 16 ga SXS shooting Fiocchi GP. I guess the best aim point would be the eyes on a charging grizzly. My best bet will likely get in contact with Fish and Game to keep apprised of bear sightings and avoid those areas like the plague. Finally, just hope at age 77 I haven't used up all my luck flying in combat off aircraft carriers and multiple other adventures and misadventures. You only go around once, so you might as well make it interesting.

_________________
An elderly gentleman, his faithful dogs, and a 16 ga SXS. All is right with the world.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paperhulls
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:14 am  Reply with quote
Guest





Well I've got to say something. I'm new here and I'm not intending to step on toes but I'm gonna have to comment on this "We're sportsmen with classic guns, not pistoleros" vibe I'm getting here. Shooting and handling a pistol well is one of those skills that makes you a well rounded outdoorsman. It is as essential as knowing how to navigate, make fire, make shelter and find water. There's nothing stopping anyone on this board from becoming a better handgun shooter. Things happen fast with dangerous animals. But that pistol is going to be on you when you've laid the shotgun down to take a break or when nature calls in the woods, or when you're walking out with your gun over your shoulder with a full game bag leaving a scent trail that says easy supper. You can be like Quigley Down Under and not have much use for a handgun, but you better know how to use one when it's down to the nut cuttin.
Back to top
Brewster11
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:07 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 1301
Location: Western WA

Now I am venturing on opinion, but I would NOT use a 16 ga birdshot load to defend myself from a griz charge. Least damaging outcomes have been playing dead and the bear will administer a severe mauling but then leave. A facefull of birdshot will almost certainly result in the bear killing the hunter...Griz is a very intelligent and vengeful beast.

I am reminded of the unfortunate deer hunter on Kodiak whose .243 rifle was found with a fired round in the chamber FIFTY FEET from his remains.

Given enough time for a draw, bear spray is considered by professionals today to be preferable to a large pistol, considering the difficulty of delivering a fatal shot at short range on an animal charging at 30 mph.

B.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:28 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Gentlemen,

I do recommend when Grouse hunting here in Pa to take a side arm along. Usually a Black Bear will turn and walk away form a dog or human, if however a Black Bear does actually attack a human, it's not like a Griz who malls and leaves. The Black Bear will kill and eat the human. In our mountains the Black Bears are so over fed that most time they are not a problem, however remember this most time when a Black Bear attacks you better have a gun to protect yourself, there is basically nothing they are really afraid of, and really no place to hide if the Bear want to get at you. Be safe and carry slugs while grouse hunting and a powerful enough hand gun as a back up to keep you safe.

My buddy Ken Graft was within 20 yard of a big Black Bear in the Potter County a few years back, the big Black Bear simply stood up looked Ken in the eye, turned and walked off. We were very lucky that day, for sure.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

_________________
"L.C. Smith America's Best" - John Houchins

Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chicago
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:18 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 1376
Location: Northern Illinois

This thread is sort of like watching Jaws before you go to the beach. And, you are going to need a bigger boat.

Good Hunting,
Mike
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:24 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Mike,
Good analysis!

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

_________________
"L.C. Smith America's Best" - John Houchins

Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gomerdog
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:41 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Sep 2015
Posts: 94
Location: Fremont County, Wyoming

Brewster11 wrote:


Given enough time for a draw, bear spray is considered by professionals today to be preferable to a large pistol, considering the difficulty of delivering a fatal shot at short range on an animal charging at 30 mph.

B.


This! ^
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mtbirder
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:37 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 05 Nov 2016
Posts: 189
Location: Montana

Brewster11 wrote:
Now I am venturing on opinion, but I would NOT use a 16 ga birdshot load to defend myself from a griz charge. Least damaging outcomes have been playing dead and the bear will administer a severe mauling but then leave. A facefull of birdshot will almost certainly result in the bear killing the hunter...Griz is a very intelligent and vengeful beast.

I am reminded of the unfortunate deer hunter on Kodiak whose .243 rifle was found with a fired round in the chamber FIFTY FEET from his remains.

Given enough time for a draw, bear spray is considered by professionals today to be preferable to a large pistol, considering the difficulty of delivering a fatal shot at short range on an animal charging at 30 mph.

B.


When I was a younger man, part of my job duties entailed performing necropsies on various wildlife, including Grizzly Bears - some of which had been shot by professional Game Wardens performing wildlife management duties.
Granted, the bullets used were not solids or cast cores, but the were shot at close ranges and not usually under crisis type situations.
Various, .357 and .40 rounds which I retrieved from bear carcasses had entered the neck shoulder area and penetrated up to 3-4" before stopping their path. Grizzly musculature is quite impressive.... Most were not immediate kill shots.
Head shots - a different story. But most of these bullets wounds [inflicted on the bears] were from a trained LEO who had ample time to make the shot.
Not to belabor the issue, but this is a topic of interest to me - as I live play and work in Grizzly Bear "central" and find interesting the wide array of opinions that exist on this topic.
A whole 'nuther topic is the BB's I've seen in bears that really did little or no damage - except to probably his/her attitude.......
The thought of pulling the trigger of my Superlight Feather at a pissed off dude/momma is a nasty proposition..............................
Carry on.....
p.s.
Riflemeister, when I'm 77 I hope I'm still chasin' birds behind pointers, the "senior" ( I'll take some precarious liberty....) still out there are my role models Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
WyoChukar
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:26 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

Grizzlies have been known to hunt and eat humans. I know one fellow who had the displeasure of inspecting the remains of just such an encounter not far from my home a couple years ago. Never assume that it's "maul and leave". Even if it is, surviving that is a gamble.

When the chips are down and you have 2 seconds to live, use whatever you have in your hands. You won't likely kill a bear with bird shot, but without eyeballs it's going to have it's work cut out catching you. We are talking surprise attack here, not a case of seeing the bear first and having time to prepare by grabbing spray or buckshot.

Given the choice in a situation where the bear is seen first, spray keeps you out of court, but I would be consulting your maker for a little intervention, just in case.

_________________
Only catch snowflakes on your tongue AFTER the birds fly south for the winter...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
WyoChukar
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:18 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

Look at the bright side, no matter what you choose, "It was supposed to work" takes up very little room on a headstone.

_________________
Only catch snowflakes on your tongue AFTER the birds fly south for the winter...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paperhulls
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:11 pm  Reply with quote
Guest





Some reading on the subjecthttps://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5QNvpLKJw
Back to top
Griffon
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:05 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 429
Location: Maine

Numerous black bears in Maine but never seen one in 35+ years of bird hunting.

Friend of mine says his Ex wife is way meaner than a Grizzly, he should know he's working on number 4.

_________________
If it weren't for women cats would be extinct.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paperhulls
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:16 am  Reply with quote
Guest





Here's some food for thought,
https://www.wbir.com/mobile/article/news/local/family-of-man-found-dead-in-smokies-left-with-questions-bear-euthanized-after-incident/51-593413370
They aren't sure at this time If the bear killed him or just scavenged his body.
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
All times are GMT - 7 Hours

View next topic
View previous topic
Page 2 of 4
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
16ga.com Forum Index  ~  16ga. General Discussion

Post new topic   Reply to topic


 
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB and NoseBleed v1.09