16ga.com ~ View topic - Recoil-SxS vs. O/U

The Winter Upland Almanac had an article by Chris Batha in which he discussed the effect of recoil of SxSs compared with O/Us (recognizing that if the load, velocity, and gun wt is the same, then foot/pounds of energy is the same):
"If viewed in slow motion when fired, the barrels of a side-by-side demonstrate a downward motion or 'down flip.' There is then a second phase of recoil created by the gun attempting to twist on the action left or right, depending on the barrel being fired."
"It is far easier to shoot and manage recoil with an over-and-under, especially on second-barrel shots where there is less recovery time to bring the muzzles back to the target line."
John Olin designed some early M-21 skeet guns to shoot the L brl first, believing that the recoil would move the gun into the face, rather that pulled away from the face.
Thoughts? Does this matter in bird hunting as long as the gun shoots where you are looking?
I am very recoil sensitive and must admit that felt recoil in my SxSs seems greater than an O/U when using the same load. That why I use 3/4 oz. 20g loads and 7/8 oz 16 and 12g loads shooting clay targets-and don't feel handicapped a bit (at least at 16 yd trap, low gun skeet, and SCs.)

Member Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 446 Location: Wisconsin

"John Olin designed some early M-21 skeet guns to shoot the L brl first, believing that the recoil would move the gun into the face, rather that pulled away from the face. "

I am not aware of this. Do you have a reference?
Win would chamber/choke ANYTHING you wanted. I passed a 20 gauge that had one barrel 2&3/4 and the left 3" as Factory. There is even a Model 21 with each barrel a different gauge.
Since the Model 21 came early with double triggers and then a single selective trigger, it would have been very easy to choke sk1 in the left and sk2 in the right and just push the button to the left. -Dick

Dick: there have been threads on both DoubleGunBBS and SS BB regarding this and I believe it was documented in Winchester's Finest: The Model 21 by Ned Schwing. I'm in no way a Model 21 expert however.

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

My take on this muzzle flip or twist. Recovery time, or anything else they care to say a shotgun barrel does is unimportant to the average shooter.
Come on Guys, we're not shooting rifles here, looking for 1/2" groups at 200 yds. It's a Scatter Gun, with a 24" to 30" pattern at 40 yds. I know what your trying to get at Drew, I just don't think the average guy even knows it's happening. Or gives a hoot for that matter. Wink

Member Joined: 25 Jul 2006 Posts: 781

It does make a difference, but undetectable to most. The part with a bigger impact on perceived recoil and barrel deflection is stock fit.

But consider this....

Percieve a line drawn down the center of the barrel that is fired.....the further that line is from a line that runs along the comb of the stock, the more the gun will deflect (or jump) in the gunners hands when shot. And it will "try" or "tend" to rotate on a point that is at the butt end of the comb.

You may have noticed this effect if you have ever shot a gun with too much cast on to the shooter or too much drop in the stock. When you shoot it, it rotates and slaps you in the cheekbone.

That's why the lower barrel in an O/U gives less perceived recoil than the top barrel, to some shooters. that is also why a trap barrel made to fit an O/U has the barrel on the bottom and a tall rib, rather than the other way around.

So, on that basis alone the SxS has a very slight advantage in deflection under recoil as it does not have one barrel much further askew from the stock. At the same time there is a very slight side to side movement thrown in.

Jeff

Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 787 Location: Indiana

I've shot side by sides, pumps and o/u's for years; if there is a difference in recoil or pointablility, I cannot tell it. This may make a difference to some-- There are a thousand excuses for missing out there, but if one has the opportunity to take equal time to become familiar with each respective firearm, I wouldn't think there would be enough difference to matter.

Does anyone even feel recoil when bird shooting? I'm not much of a techie, so I won't say it doesn't effect my shooting (wait, maybe it does...cool! Another excuse Very Happy

!) But I believe I am totally unaware of recoil when firing at a bird. Now on targets it may be different, but I don't shoot that many targets so I have to say I'm unaware of it there as well. Question

Member Joined: 02 Feb 2006 Posts: 602 Location: western pa

I've never been much aware of recoil while game shooting with the 16. However, when Mossberg first came out with the 3&1/2" model835(being a duck hunter), they suckered me into buying one. I'm not the least bit recoil sensative but after multiple 3 round volleys at mallards I learned a helluva lesson about matching gun weight to the round being used.If you need a big gun, go with a 10 bore. If you want a nice gun go 16 bore.I suspect that if anyone out there that has any experience with Argentina dove shooting, they could probably give us all some hard earned advice on the effects of recoil with different guns.I think Larry Brown made a comment once that recoil is mostly noticed when you miss.

Joined: 14 Sep 2006 Posts: 13

It's not so much the actual "recoil" on a SxS that's the problem, but rather the torque created by the barrel placement. That's what felt. Sxs's seem to "jump" into you when you shoot them as opposed to a smooth push against the shoulder.

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

Drew, I think it's time you get a Sissytori since you finally admit to being a big sissy about recoil. You will feel less percieved recoil, birds will fall at your feet from out of the sky, and your dog will adore you as a hunting god--or so I'm told by the guys selling these new ones. Wink

Actually, I suggest reloading 3/4 ounce loads for all practice skeet and 7/8 ounce 1100 FPS loads for trap. Problem solved. It works in any type of break open or pump.

Also, shoot all your skeet low gun style. You will naturally feel less recoil shooting from the low gun position. It is both much more comfortable and will also help your field shooting tremendously. Of course, this pends on wether your stock fits you precisely too. Have it checked, and get it adjusted if you need it done. Putting that together, it won't take much time to make the jump from premounted to low gun. A couple hundred targets will do it.

I doubt you'll notice much recoil on a live bird, so just blaze away with whatever puts them on the deck the quickest for you.

Either that or you can have your hunting tu-tu equiped with a special padded shoulder and you can don a football helmet. Anyone got a camera handy? Laughing

(This from a guy wearing blaze lederhosen Shocked

)

Always good discussions here which don't degenerate into skunk squirtin' matches as usually happens on SS BB Confused

I was totally unaware of the recoil of the Federal Wing Shok 1 1/8 at 1400 fps in my 7 1/2# 12g Sterly up in S. Dakota, but can't finish 50 LOW GUN skeet targets without flinching even with 7/8 oz loads Rolling Eyes

I do perceive the torque effect in my SxSs but also don't believe in matters.

Is that with any 16 ga gun or just certain ones. I know you are partial to pre WWII American classic SxS guns. However, some have stock configurations that would make a statue flinch.

I too find 7/8 ounce loads a bit much for skeet if they are loaded over 1100 fps. I've never figured out why skeet loads are loaded to 1200 fps either. Its not needed. a 3/4 ounce lad of #8 or 9 shot at 1100 FPS will break any skeet target you can hit and are extremely comfortable to shoot. I've run the field many, many times with them out of 16 to 28 ga. guns. Of course, I never shoot registered skeet either. Its just fun stuff. I figure why pound myself if there is a better way. Try them. the difference is noticable.

By the way, I went over to chartruse. It goes well with the shocking pink knee highs and the lilac hat. Rolling Eyes

*Last edited by brdhnt on Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:37 am; edited 1 time in total*

Get thee out to the range!

The best way to tell the movement of the gun in recoil is to test it from a static position. In years of pattern/velcotiy testing, I've shot thousands of rounds from many different guns in this way. Whether from a static standing position or from the benchrest, this will tell you how and in what direction the gun moves in recoil. Video taping the shot will enable you to determine which planes the gun moves in.

For a field gun, this does not matter, since to most of us, perceived recoil when shooting at game is less than at any other time. When using the gun for repetitive shooting (clay birds) this may tell you why you get a 'gun headache' which may invovle some stock work.

One over and under I have that I use for a lot of load testing and also shoot as a competition gun fits me fine when I am shooting it on either clay or feathered game. When I am using it for test purposes, though about 3/8" of moleskin gets attached to the comb so I don't end up with a bruise the size of a hen's egg on my right cheek after 20-30 rounds.

Over the years I have shot thousands of rounds through every action type available doing this. Some guns will literally try to bounce out of your hands. SOme will torque to the right, some to the left, some will even try to roll over. This will happen even if the gun is stocked for me for field/competition use. High combed trap and skeet guns seem to have less side to side movement but will still usually go either right or left.

There has been many a day when I came home from the range with a bruise and knot on my right cheek and even a couple of stitches from a gun with a seam on the top of it's synthetic stock.

Again, this does not effect the gun when shot at game or even clay birds since the movement of the gun in recoil is a part of the greater movement of the gun in relation to the bird. Moleskin or one of the stick on comb pads on your bird gun on the clays range may help reduce this felt recoil enough to enjoy the gun.

IMO

TMB
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Member Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 446 Location: Wisconsin