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< 16ga. General Discussion ~ Boxlock vs. Sidelock |
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Posted:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:23 pm
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Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 1310
Location: Western WA
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Boxlock vs Sidelock - we own and enjoy shooting both but I side with Don Zutz who gives the edge to the boxlock in his book The Double Shotgun. Curiously enough, his book, in which he endorses the M21 as the best all around SxS, was published by Winchester Press.
Notwithstanding the authoritative work of Michael Macintosh and others, Don's explanation of the evolution of the SxS is stunning in its logic and clarity, as was almost everything he wrote. His discussion of straight vs pistol grip in the context of splinter vs beavertail and total gun fit is unsurpassed and still relevant with today's new autoloaders.
Let's throw this out there: Nothing beats the SKB boxlock as a SxS action. It's a Japanese copy of the M21 (or maybe the German boxlocks) which copies the English boxlocks, smooth as butter, locks up like a bank vault and wear is nil. Not all boxlocks are equal, opening the Savage 311 can be like setting a rat trap with one hand.
Having said that, Ted's sliding breech guns might be superior in virtually all respects, they are light, wonderfully balanced and easy to operate with positive extraction etc. Unfortunately the very thought of that breech flying back and burying itself halfway into one's face discourages many otherwise discriminating SxS shooters. Yes Ted, we know it will NEVER happen but I can't convince some people to try a bite of squirrel stew either.
Cheers
B. |
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Posted:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:40 am
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Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Posts: 345
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Unless I missed it, another interesting difference btwn the two designs the OP asked about, is that true side locks with double triggers are essentially two independent fire control systems that are generally able to continue functioning when it's mate has a malfunction. Boxlocks using shared components could down both sides in a similar malfunction. I wouldn't be swayed in either direction by this point though, and think this is not likely an issue unless using the gun on dangerous game. |
_________________ 1929 Thomas Bland 16ga SxS 28"
1947 Browning A5 16ga 28"
1948 BRNO 16ga SxS 27.5"
1949 Stevens 530 16ga SxS 28"
1950 Stevens 311A 12ga SxS 30"
1952 BRNO 12ga SxS 28.25"
1963 Superposed O/U 12ga 27"
1968 V Bernardelli SxS 12ga 28" |
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Posted:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:26 pm
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Joined: 26 Jul 2016
Posts: 5
Location: NC
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Brewster11,
Ithaca/SKB, and Japanese made SKB SxS are much like Webley and Scott 700 series , simplifying the design to ease production. Not too much in common with a Win 21 past configuration and that's OK! Light, tough and good handling guns.
wahoo,
Two trigger guns of either design should function as separate firing systems, single trigger, maybe. Something to consider when facing down the death charge of a wounded rooster!
XJ |
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Posted:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:42 pm
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Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 1480
Location: Mpls, MN.
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Brewster11 wrote: |
Having said that, Ted's sliding breech guns might be superior in virtually all respects, they are light, wonderfully balanced and easy to operate with positive extraction etc. Unfortunately the very thought of that breech flying back and burying itself halfway into one's face discourages many otherwise discriminating SxS shooters. Yes Ted, we know it will NEVER happen but I can't convince some people to try a bite of squirrel stew either.
Cheers
B.
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Thank goodness for that. If everyone could see the light, it would have made it more difficult and expensive for me to own the two I do:
[URL=http://www.jpgbox.com/page/55729_600x400/]
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A new V19, if you could get one to the US, would blow a big hole in 30K.
My V19 is a 28 gauge, might be tough to find another. The R10 is a 12.
And, unlike countless gun manufacturers who have come and gone, the Darne is still going, still in production. About 140 years.
Love this one, too. Breech doesn’t slide!
[URL=http://www.jpgbox.com/page/55730_600x400/]
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The Browning hits all the sidelock notes, chopper lump barrels, intercepting sears, crisp trigger pulls, and is built of modern steel with 2 3/4” chambers.
Equal opportunity gunowner:
[URL=http://www.jpgbox.com/page/55731_600x400/]
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Good old Uggy Falcon. Reliable, everyday gun. Hey, I lived for a year or two on Brunswick stew. Times were lean for me under Carter.
Room for all of ‘em,in my safe. Don’t get me started on pumps!
Best,
Ted |
_________________ "Well sir, stupidity isn't technically against the law, and on that note, I'll remove the handcuffs and you are free to go". |
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Posted:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:15 pm
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Member
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Posts: 1943
Location: Lowcountry Ga.
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Darne touted the simplicity of its design over "tipping" guns by showing the 25 parts it utilized to accomplish the same tasks a break action needed 41 parts to do. See page 5 of this link:
http://doublegunshop.com/darne/darne-info.pdf |
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Posted:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:58 am
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Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2802
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa
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Gentlemen,
Deleted double post |
Last edited by Pine Creek/Dave on Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:51 pm; edited 2 times in total _________________ "L.C. Smith America's Best" - John Houchins
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers |
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Posted:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:59 am
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Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2802
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa
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Gentlemen,
There are a few well made box lock guns, and LeFever designed and produced them.
Like the L.C. Smith Side Lock it never shoots loose, although engineered with a set screw to adjust the breech locking engineering, it does work perfectly. LeFever also invented the engineering to have both ejectors and extractors work on the same gun, simply by moving a switch on the gun.
LeFever was a true master gun builder and as Bill Brophy said L.C. Smith can be darn glad he decided to engineer and build Box Lock guns, instead of side lock guns, or they would probably have sold only half the guns they did.
Further although Don Zutz unfortunately influenced part of a generation of gun purchasers, he was not any kind of gun maker, and did not really know anything about engineering, especially Best gun design and making. His opinions are one of a novice gun owner, not an engineer or gun maker of any kind.
I have to give credit to Darne for staying in business for over 140 years, a mark of stability and decent Euro gun making for sure. However IMO if they were a USA company they would have folded long ago because of the competition and producing a limited amount of gun inventory.
The side lock gun is the engineering standard of a Best Gun world wide, and always will be. Most box lock guns are simple made gun design/engineering, that can be mass produced on a production line, where side lock guns need to be hand fit and finished by a master gun maker, befitting Best gun status and design even today. Totally different engineering and production.
Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man
L.C. Smith America's Best - John Houchins
[URL=http://www.jpgbox.com/page/55735_800x600/]
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LeFever/Ithaca Box Lock with Custom engraving and Oak Leaf Wood Work checkering.
[URL=http://www.jpgbox.com/page/55736_800x600/]
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Fox A another well made American Classic Box Lock double gun.
[URL=http://www.jpgbox.com/page/55737_800x600/]
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_________________ "L.C. Smith America's Best" - John Houchins
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers |
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Posted:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:09 pm
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Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 1480
Location: Mpls, MN.
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Limited gun inventory? They built OVER A MILLION Beans!
LC Smith’s don’t shoot loose? Spare us-Darnes do not shoot loose. Elsie’s shoot loose, and break stocks and pop ribs, at a horrendous rate. Intercepting sears? Nope. Chopper lump barrels? Nope.
Best? Nope. Credit Zutz for speaking the truth about Elsie’s a long time past.
The Lefever adjustment mechanism was put there to simplify building the guns, Dave. Get the barrels close in a jig on a machine, hand them to an unskilled laborer, put them on the frame, set the adjustment snug, pass them along to the next guy on the line. The “adjustment” feature is a happy accident.
Your Ithaca, above, has nothing to do with Uncle Dan’s guns, save the name stamped into the tubes. There was one grade cheaper than the Nitro, but, it was almost the same and not much cheaper.
Entry level Ithaca’s. Good,solid guns (I own one) but, just that and nothing else.
http://vicknairgunsmithing.blogspot.com/2016/01/an-unbiased-look-at-design-of-american.html
Best,
Ted |
_________________ "Well sir, stupidity isn't technically against the law, and on that note, I'll remove the handcuffs and you are free to go". |
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Posted:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:57 pm
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Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2802
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa
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Ted,
Please tell me engineeringly how a Brown Rotary Bolt can possibly shoot loose, that is an engineering impossibility.
You like to talk a lot and make no sense what so ever, you and Zutz are a good combination, you both know very little about engineering and like to talk a lot.
Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man |
_________________ "L.C. Smith America's Best" - John Houchins
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers |
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Posted:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:50 am
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Member
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Posts: 1943
Location: Lowcountry Ga.
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Dave, don't know if Dewey Vicknair is an engineer or not, but is one of the top gunsmiths in the country. You can get to is site through the link below. He refuses to work on L.C. Smiths. However, he details the work he did on a Specialty grade and in the first few lines of his report speaks of it "being off face" and that someone had tried to "tighten the action" by peening the lug. Dewey is no shadytree smith. Check out his custom projects including building a double rifle from scratch. Gil
http://vicknairgunsmithing.blogspot.com/2016/08/the-right-way-to-do-it.html |
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Posted:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:26 pm
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Joined: 04 Oct 2015
Posts: 280
Location: Clemson
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I have enjoyed shooting both sidelock and boxlock doubleguns. I havent noticed any advantage or disadvantage to either design while killing quail. I always liked the delicate look of a sidelock. Opinions seem to vary as to the durability of each. Since I'm not an engineer, my thoughts are of limited value as to design apparently.
Merry Christmas , Ken |
_________________ There is no substitute for winning! |
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Posted:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:34 am
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Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 1007
Location: Lancaster county, Pa
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I like sidelocks and boxlocks both have worked well for me. I have had parts break on both types. I shoot my guns a lot and will expose any weakness. Luckily Dewey is my neighbor and fix's them for me including my Smiths. Dewey is not nostalgic or emotionally attached to a particular gun. He's blunt and to the point but can fix anything and make any part. He has remade many parts for about 10 different brands of guns I've taken him over the years. Talented beyond compare the man knows his craft. If you have thin skin don't ask him for his opinion. |
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Posted:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:52 am
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Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2802
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa
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Gentlemen,
There are a lots of guns smiths who have reputations, many of them are not talented enough to work on L.C. Smith guns correctly, they make all kinds of excuses. If they could they would be working on them when needed, which is very seldom.
I have heard this kind crap all my life, use the gun maker that can do the job for you, no matter what gun you own.
Pine Creek/Dave |
_________________ "L.C. Smith America's Best" - John Houchins
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers |
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Posted:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:47 pm
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Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 1310
Location: Western WA
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Lefever sidelocks have been oft mentioned and celebrated here, but do we have anyone here who shoots a D.M. Lefever boxlock (not the Nitro Special)?
Just curious. I've never set eyes on one.
B. |
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Posted:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:04 pm
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Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2009
Posts: 1370
Location: Cheyenne, Wy
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One of the hardest things about growing up is accepting facts.
Dale |
_________________ One man with courage makes a majority.
...Andrew Jackson... |
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