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tramroad28
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:04 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

Selling ESH is one ticket which will help us all...hunters and non-hunters...even anti-hunters.

Focusing on golden-winged warblers and the like will allow ESH salesmen to enter doors that desperately need opened.
Hunters.....a pitifully small group as to effecting actual rather than postage stamp change.
Imo

At varying times, I have belonged to game/conservation/banquet table organizations well apart from my own area and my own interests.
That is a sound idea and one which reminds me that I should re-up.
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hayseed
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:46 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Feb 2017
Posts: 401

tramroad28 wrote:

Hunters.....a pitifully small group as to effecting actual rather than postage stamp change.
Imo


Except when they want to use funds generated and paid for by hunters and shooters, like Pittman - Robertson.


Last edited by hayseed on Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:47 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

hayseed,

You are absolutely correct, the tax money tells the true story, however we are spread out all over the USA, not in just one state.

Massive money collected every year, from mainly sport hunters & shooters.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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tramroad28
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:32 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

hayseed wrote:
tramroad28 wrote:

Hunters.....a pitifully small group as to effecting actual rather than postage stamp change.
Imo


Except when they want to use funds generated and paid for by hunters and shooters, like Pittman - Robertson.


Not understanding your point.....we remain a small and shrinking(more or less) group and one needing additional help than the simple belief that one can do it all themselves.
Especially today...imo.

It takes more than money to bring effective change...takes more than imagining one can wave that magic wand to get things done, especially on the federal level....takes more than comparable postage stamp action for some issues like ESH.
Plus, believing that all hunters and shooters understand or even care about ESH is...optimistic.

P-R, just like the PA Gameland system, was a forward-thinking idea with outsize benfits.......we can't tho, use it as a crutch to avoid walking a difficult path looking for others to help Habitat, species both game and non-game and ...at some point...ourselves.

Again, imo.
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hayseed
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:17 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Feb 2017
Posts: 401

Point being that though we are small in numbers the financial impact of hunters and shooters license fees and taxes on sporting equipment far exceeds those of any bird watchers or nature lovers. With the funds used to purchase and manage the lands, for ALL to enjoy, hunters should have more of a say in the management. Management of these larger parcels would make a larger impact than any many small "postage stamp" projects.
Seems that those footing the bill should have a say equivalent to the financial contributions. JMO
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tramroad28
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:03 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

That is indeed the old story line.
One which may not always play well in today's changing times....too easy to fall to a Them Vs. Us thinking rather than a Them with Us thinking.
One hears that fighting contest of users re use of PA Gamelands.
"Footing the bill" as an enabler of decision is a dead end to thought and steps forward, to me.
Sounds good, high-fives follow but.....dead end on any scale of achieving appreciable value on a landscape basis.
Them with Us......is better.
No good follows the throwing up of hurdles of...."I'm more important because.....".
One day...we may find ourselves on the wrong end of that stick.

Proper management of large parcels ie Federal often requires that non-existent magic wand.
We need, imo, to deal in the realities of all ....treaties, hunters, obstructionists, approachables and more.......pushing any group to the side as non-contributables further sets hurdles to achieving proper management.
Seen and saddened by exactly that mindset at round tables in NF Revision Plan public meetings.

JMO
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:03 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

tramrod28,


We definitely disagree. Having lived and hunted in Pa for most of my life I can tell you the Pa Sportsman payed for the Pa State Game Lands in total, including the land gifts made by those Pa hunters to the PGC/SGL

For many years the non-hunters who pay nothing and put pressure on the PGC/Pa Politicians to make the SGL a joint usage area, want the right to use the SGL for other games. Just because the number of hunters here in Pa has shrunk, changes nothing. However unless the Pa Sportsman wake up and stop this political movement to steal the Pa hunters SGL for non hunting uses, hunting as we know it here in Pa will fade away. Not because there are fewer hunters but because the SGL will turn into just another state park, which the non hunters have plenty of already.

The answer to this problem is to mentor new hunters/sportsman not to undermine the PGC/SGL for non hunting uses.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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tramroad28
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:14 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

Pine Creek/Dave wrote:
tramrod28,We definitely disagree....


That's ok.
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pudelpointer
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:39 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 1007
Location: Lancaster county, Pa

Tramroad is correct it will take a lot more than hunters to effect change on the scale we need it done. Dave is also correct that hunters have made the biggest impact on conservation and have to be vigilant that we don't lose our rights along the way. The view from 10,000 ft on this subject is quite clear and quite confusing at the same time. Education and partnering with all interested parties is the way forward. Quick story to make my point. There is an 1100 acre land conservancy property about 1/2 mile from my land in NY. I met the president of the land conservancy while fishing one day he was canoeing and we introduced ourselves. I questioned him about their on going efforts to improve water quality and forest health. We got on the subject of active forest management i asked him if they considered cutting some timber for diversity and at risk species that require active forest management. He said no the board would never approve. Long story short i had him invite the board to my property for a tour after our tour and education on habitat the board changed there minds. I put them in Contact with Audubon NY and RGS. They now have active management on most of there parcels with a Woodcock display area where they do spring singing tours. They also have a few Gold wing warbler display area's. The properties are closed to hunting but I think we all still benefit from having more habitat. Some of the woodcock born and raised there may migrate to your hunting grounds. Odd partnerships can be formed and the benefits reach outside the property lines. We don't have to agree on everything but I know through that whole effort that many minds were changed about hunting and conservation. I have received invites from some of the members i to hunt there properties and they are not hunters some in the conservancy are hunters. I had request to take one of the board members hunting with my dogs he did not hunt or carry a gun but had a fabulous time and understands the sport and pursuit. I feel confident that he speaks well of hunting and has a different view. Did we change the world yes a little piece of it and eating elephants takes focus one bit at a time. This could have easily went the other way but as Tramroad said think outside the box and enlist any help you can get. As Dave said be vigilant while doing these things and watch your backdoor.
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:22 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

Interestingly enough, the current issue of Pheasants Forever magazine highlights a lot of work being done around the country for birds (and other forms of wildlife) other than pheasant and mentions many of the nontraditional partnerships we are talking about here. It is worth reading.

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:04 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

WyoChukar,

The RGS/AWS magazine had similar write ups also, I am not real sure pandering to the non-hunters is all that great of an idea, however I do not see any real disadvantage to it, unless they start dwelling on the conservation aspects as an overall orgainzation.

RGS/AWS and Pheasant's Forever were started as hunting organizations, not conservation organizations. IMO there are plenty of liberal Conservation type organizations around, we need more hunters, not bird watchers.

Become a RGS/AWS Mentor, introduce a youngster to the great upland shooting life. Get a youngster hooked on wild bird hunting, beautiful gun dogs & fine double guns, instead of drugs & crime. We need to get our youth back into the traditions of our country, and reintroduce these younger generations to our traditional American way of life.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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