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Griffon
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:33 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 429
Location: Maine

Ditto

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Cold Iron
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:12 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Mar 2016
Posts: 746
Location: Mn.

mtbirder wrote:
I linked the article as it is indicative of the cumulative negative pressures on hunting AND fishing. This ND issue is also indicative of the larger picture.
I know countless guys who have hunted ND for many years and have NEVER heard a one of them speak of the unpopularity or negative landowner attitude of ND's current and very long standing trespass/hunting law. Not one.
My guess that this is just another special interest driven legislative method of continuing to erode our hunting heritage and tradition.
This is way way bigger than the actual issue itself.
It WILL be decided in ND by the ND legislature and will be dependent on the input that body gets from the public and the lobbying bodies involved in the issue.
Probably (?) will pass and an almost century old ND hunting tradition will change.
If so, hunters will lose out. As a body we seem to take this stuff lying down.....

What's this have to do with a 16 gauge shotgun?? I'm a 16 gauge enthusiast because of hunting and access to hunting. Without those two - I will not be a 16 gauge enthusiast.

I offer a very halfhearted apology to those on here who don't like this stuff on "Gun Talk". I get it.


That is actually a great article, and I get it. By chance did you write it? There are still steams in NC Pa. that are poisoned from the sulfer, pretty but they hold no life. One of my grandfathers worked the pumps in the coal mines when they mined the soft coal and he used to blame himself for killing the trout. Only thing I would disagree with in that article is that loss of CRP isn't just Montana it is the Dakotas and other States also.

I hunt SD with several other retired Navy guys, the Admirals house is 10 miles from the ND border. 2 of them are residents of SD. Those of us that are non residents put in for the waterfowl drawing and if we don't get drawn hunt ND before SD opens at 10. My first year there I told John who was staff on the Coral Sea when we took it around the world in 83 that I had been to 49 States and ND was the only State I hadn't been in yet. The next day he told me I was hunting with him.

We have access to a fair amount of private land but also hunt public and pinch ditches in SD. As it was getting close to sunset we hit a ditch off a section road and hundreds of birds mainly roosters took to the sky. Now most of those ditches are cut, as are the fields around them right up to the edge. Afraid those days of hundreds of birds are over. Couple of minutes later John pulled over and I took this picture, my 50th State.



Can't hunt the ditches in ND unless the area around it doesn't have Trespass signs. And there isn't a lot of public land in ND unlike SD. Loss of CRP has hit there too. If the bill passes then none of us will be buying ND licenses anymore.
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mtbirder
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:45 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 05 Nov 2016
Posts: 189
Location: Montana

I did not write that article as I am not Hal Herring - as I am not some dude named "grouseguy" Laughing .
There is an evident gulf between posters regarding the understanding of each other. Personal experience colors all our views.
For the record I am a staunch private property rights advocate. I own a piece.
Most on this forum live in regions of America that are marginal for hunting and fishing. The West, the upper great Lakes, etc are the last of what many of us grew up with (and seem to take for granted). Now the powers that be have set their sites on these regions - make the West as crappy as the rest of what once was. It is what it is,.............................
Good hunting to all you fellas.
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:31 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Last edited by Pine Creek/Dave on Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:32 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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mtbirder,

I hope the residence of the western states fight off those who want changes made to their states game laws if that is what they want. I also own land but in Pa and I am a big advocate of personal property rights also.

Good luck gentlemen and I hope you people living in the western states keep or get the game laws you most want.

Pine Creek/Dave
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:39 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

I have mixed feelings about this. The great access was a major factor in me going to North Dakota as young hunter over 20 years ago. That said, where I hunt up north there is very little posted land but where I hunt in the southwest there is now, unlike when I first visited and I seldom encountered another bird hunter.

Permission is usually granted on posted land, but occasionally not. The big worry is that this will lead to commercial hunting and leasing to become more prevalent. The system of passing a bribe to take what you want from everyone else kind of failed there 15 years ago since people didn't like suddenly losing permission to hunt their neighbor's land, but I still worry. Some of that has crept back in with one landowner who controls a great deal of land.

Hunter recruitment is an issue these days and it affects our future. I worry about the young guys not having the opportunities I have enjoyed. Without those chances, they will move on and find something else to do. I have been keeping tabs of what has happened with resident hunter numbers in South Dakota and access issues are driving it, it's not good.

Is posting land that big of a deal? I know plenty of folks there that do it and don't mind. Some have permanent signs so they don't need to date and sign them. If this bill passes will it be the end of hunting as we know it in North Dakota? Probably not. I don't mind knocking on doors, as long as I can actually find that door. I know both sides of the issue and have even been involved on both sides. There are valid arguments each way and I respect them. My only concern is the domino effect of difficult access for future generations.


Last edited by WyoChukar on Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:02 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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An additional thought. My lengthy experience with North Dakota, it's wonderful people, and land access boils down to this, in terms of the existing law. A great many folks don't mind people hunting their land as long as it isn't close to the house (hunting within 440 yards of a residence or occupied building is forbidden by law unless permission is given by owner/ occupant) and intentionally don't post their land. With the current system, there's no doubt if a piece of land requires permission, unlike in Wyoming where massive tracts of unoccupied land all look the same and are unmarked and often unfenced (in terms of land ownership) and people can get in trouble without even knowing it.

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m3sarcher
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:53 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Jan 2019
Posts: 5
Location: MN

As a small North Dakota farmland owner having grown up on the farm, and now MN resident, I have pretty strong feelings about this.

ND does not have a lot of public land. And the political push from the party that secures our gun rights seems to be to want to privatize the state owned land that still exists. I vote one way and lose my gun rights, I vote the other way and lose my hunting land.

The beauty of the current law is that we can leave land unposted if we want hunters to have access. Better yet, we can post it only for deer season if we want for example, then pull the signs. I use jugs with No Hunting signs on them, and it doesn't take long to drop them off and pick them up. I have heard the argument that we could just sign up with PLOTS and then hunters would have access, plus landowners would get paid. But then we lose control of when we want the land to be open or closed. Living out of state, how is someone supposed to get written permission from me, via fax? Will a text work?

Growing up as a teen, we used to scout the evening before so we knew where to setup goose decoys. Requiring written permission probably would have limited us to duck hunting on our own property. We would call to get permission on posted land the night before, but having to get written permission when the alarm was set at 3am would have killed many a morning.

For the record, 2/3 of our 400 acres is open. And I cannot remember ever having a bad experience with a hunter from the perspective of a landowner. As a fellow hunter, I have only a few times but those entail different circumstances.

We do not need to intentionally restrict and limit hunting opportunities for youth and others. The number of hunters in ND is dwindling as it is, especially among youth. A lot of out of state tax dollars will dry up with this bill. ND landowners have full control of their land now and few are anti-hunting.

Apologies for this being my first post, but I'm actually here because of my 1917 AH Fox 16ga Sterlingworth.
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skeettx
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:57 pm  Reply with quote
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Hello m3sarcher,

WELCOME on your first posting
Pleased you are here Smile

Mike

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m3sarcher
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:49 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Jan 2019
Posts: 5
Location: MN

Quote:
WELCOME on your first posting
Pleased you are here Smile


Thanks!

One more thing... this bill feels like a 1980's solution to a 2019 problem.

A GPS enabled GIS map, like MN has, or even onX, but where a landowner could mark his land as posted, and for what dates, and for what type of game he wants it posted for, would make much more sense in this day of GPS farming. A hunter just checks his smartphone to see if it is posted, what the landowner's number to call is, and what it is posted for.

Better yet, have a Ask Permission button, where you can type in your request and submit. Landowner gets a popup on his phone, and Denies or Approves. If he approves, give an option to tip the landowner maybe depending on your hunt if you choose.

Easy Peasy and everyone's happy? maybe
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:39 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

M3sarcher, your timing couldn't be better. I am not sure I want a high tech solution, but your first post echoes what I have observed in North Dakota for a long, long time. The practice of temporary postings during deer season is something that is very common for sure. I have never been a week end visitor, my stays have ranged from a week to a month. I very well may have even been near or on your property at some point.
One thing un-posted land is great for is stalking snow geese, something I was once very talented with. I wore out a lot of pant legs and shirt elbows slithering face down across stubble into a swarm of snows. It was hard, sweaty, dirty work to say the least, but it worked and didn't require $3000 worth of decoys. Un-posted land was a huge plus for this hunting method as the geese were often hopping from field to field.

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mtbirder
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:00 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 05 Nov 2016
Posts: 189
Location: Montana

Good to see an actual North Dakotan and a Wyo. Guy who has lotsa' ND hunting experience here, m3sarcher and WyoChukar. Both very useful informative posts - I hope others who have posted on this topic take these to heart.
Make no mistake, this has nothing to do with who owns the land and/or pays the taxes on that land.
It is part of a larger concerted effort to change our hunting tradition(s). The Divide and Conquer tactic is hooking and reeling in a lot of sportsmen in like bluegills chomping on worms hanging under a bobber.....
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:47 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

M3S,
Welcome to the 16 Forum, great 1st post!

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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m3sarcher
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:02 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Jan 2019
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Location: MN

Well, either the bill changed due to pressure or it was misunderstood to begin with and was assumed to be like the previous bills.

As it stands in committee, it will be a high tech solution where land is by default marked open to public hunting, and will be indicated as green on the online map and app. Landowners will be able to log in and change it to red for no hunting, or yellow for hunting with permission, or back to green. Landowners phone numbers will be listed in the app, and land marked yellow will be able to be marked as limited by species as well. Landowners will only be able to change the listing every so often, yet to be decided, so hunters should not be surprised when arriving at a parcel that previously looked open.

No hunting signs will not be required.

This sounds like a really good solution for both sides. It will make finding open land much easier. (I can't believe I guessed it yesterday Shocked )
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:10 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

Honestly I don't really care for the idea. One, I don't want to buy a smart phone and data plan so I can see where I can hunt, and two...well If you carry that phone in the field long enough it will eventually get lost and they don't give those things away.

Sometimes things should just be left alone when there really hasn't been a problem that needs solving. Now if they want to just add an informational app for convenience of hunters, like they do with the PLOTS maps, thats fine and not a bad idea at all.

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