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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:16 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

Dave, it sounds like we need to see a man about a wall. Don't get your hackles flared, that's just a little humor to add a chuckle to your morning!

I get what you are saying, but every license holder is a shareholder, like it or not. Believe me, I have been burned by this as a resident where I live, but that's the way it is.

You are understandably peeved about the Feds pushing you aside. Well there are people who actually live in ND and even own land there, who nearly had their concerns pushed aside by force of government.

Respectfully, allow me to say that you just don't quite grasp what is going on there, and that's okay. I respect your stance and it makes sense, but...

When I first started hunting in North Dakota, I knocked on every door even though most of those lands were not posted. The response was always friendly and always the same, "You don't have to ask, that's why it's not posted." It took a good while for me to accept that it really was true. Now, during harvest when farmers are most busy, a lot of them just don't need to be interrupted anyway and it's easier to leave things un-posted for the ones who want to let people hunt.

No outsiders are lobbying game laws here. It's an access issue and special interests stirred up this pot. Like I have stated, it affects a lot of people. It's important that the people of North Dakota get what they want, and they did. Many of these filks are getting tired of it coming up. I can say from bitter experience, being forced to continually fight against changes that few want is darn irritating.

At this point, it's find something else to dwell on. The bill was defeated and nothing in this discussion is ever going to change that, so we might as well go back to what made this site worth visiting. How's the pup doing?

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pudelpointer
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:22 am  Reply with quote
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who was the special interest pushing for private land to be off limits unless permission was granted? Who was the special interest pushing for hunting anything unless it was posted? Serious question just trying to figure out what the angles or intentions were. From a hunting standpoint I completely understand the benefit of being able to hunt anything. From the landowner standpoint i'm slightly confused. When I bought my property the first fall I ran into a guy who had hunted the property for many years there was an absentee landowner. He informed me where his stand was and that he intended to keep hunting. I said OK i understand and i will allow you to continue hunting, all i ask for in return is for you to pay half the taxes. He was offended and called me a few choice words. My point is there are 2 sides to this story and both sides have good points and interests. I wish North America was all open lands full of game and everybody could pursue there passion. Unfortunately as the population grows and the wild open spots shrink we will have more conflict and hurt feelings. And seriously i want to know the special interests on both sides. Who are the players here?
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:38 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Poodlepointer,


The PGC is not going to give out any specific names for sure, politics is a nasty business. The PGC did put a statement in the hunting regs that the law actually states that hunting on unposted land is a tradition, and land owners should be contacted for permission before hunting.

Many nonresident hunters have been complaining about the license cost to the PGC, especially the nonresident hunters from OH, NJ, VA and MD. I doubt it will do any good however.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:58 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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Location: Hudson,Wy

First post lays out the players in this game.

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:53 am  Reply with quote



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WyoChukar,

I had broadened the scope to all out of state sportsman, including here in Pa which Poodlepointer was addressing, so I answered him. PP is a Pa resident also.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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pudelpointer
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:36 pm  Reply with quote
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10-4 good idea. I now understand. They don't want to post there big ranches. I would guess whoever leases them for Hunting will. Free is good but it's never really free is it. Taxes keep going up grain and cattle prices keep going down. farmer's are in a serious pinch there not evil to want to make money and hang on to there farms. It's unfortunate but its reality the tax payers should incentive's them to keep the land open to public hunting or all the sportsman groups should raise funds to keep other peoples land open to public hunting. Like I said it's romantic to take economics out of the equation but reality slaps you in the face. Luckily PA has millions of acres of State land open to public hunting. My hats off to the farmers that allow open access to there land I appreciate that point of view. I certainly don't condemn anyone that wants to make a profit on there land and doesn't want just anyone wandering around the farm. In our area a lot of farms are posted for liability reasons my son has a hard time getting permission to fish farm ponds because the insurance company doesn't want a lawsuit if someone drowns. Litigation is always a concern if someone gets injured on your property it's bullshit but reality.
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:39 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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Location: Hudson,Wy

This is going to be a tough subject to breech and absolutely no offense to anyone is intended, so here goes. The concept of farmers charging for access has resurfaced and I wish to address it. I ask that this is read objectively and thoughtfully.

I get it that profit margins shrink. However, when I pull up in a driveway in an old truck that cost me $1500, and someone tells me they need me to pay, when their driveway holds several pickups that cost $20,000-$70,000 apiece, that stings.

I know that sometimes things get tough. However, I think about how many ways the public helps out when that happens. We pay for CRP that is responsible for a lot of that wildlife. When there's a drought, we help. When there's a flood, we help. Ice storms destroying crops? Again we help, gladly. After all of this, and more, there is the matter of gratitude. I don't begrudge a man making money as a farmer, but I do dislike being kicked in the crotch after lending a helping hand whenever and wherever possible.

Fees? Well, if fair is fair, we the people lease out our federal grazing lands at the rate of $2.11 per Animal Unit Month (AUM). That means a 1000 lb. heifer and her calf for an entire month of grazing. Once again, I'm glad to do it. Then someone tells me they want $300 to chase pheasants for a few hours or $1000 to shoot an elk? There's that kick in the crotch again. Young kids? They give up and learn to do something else, or nothing at all.

I understand being backed into a corner financially speaking. I have seen some hard times, times that were pretty painful. That said, my folks and I never charged or accepted money for letting someone shoot a deer or catch our little brown trout. The cost of making an easy dollar is just too high; that is a bill payed with the very future of what we love.

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mtbirder
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 5:50 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 05 Nov 2016
Posts: 189
Location: Montana

^^

Thoughtful and insightful stuff up there.
This whole issue, beginning with the original topic, is deeply tied to one's ideology(s).
We all see the world through the lens of our own experience. To put ideologies aside and see another side of something objectively seems an impossible thing these days.
What is troubling and sad to me, is as American hunters - who have possibly the best thing in the whole world - are so deeply divided on a lot of these issues.
I see a lot of outsdoorsmen willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater - just for the sake of clinging to what comforts them.

It's good to see folks like those in North Dakota (and yes, the NR's who stand with their ND fellows) show up for this issue. It illustrates the fact that if sportsmen/women stand up for their passion - they are a powerful force to reckon with.

And you PA sportsmen, if you want non residents to stay out of your "fights", that can easily and eagerly be accomplished. But be careful. You never know when you are turning your back on a very useful ally...………….

But maybe only us Western hunters really get it

Laughing ........................
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pudelpointer
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 7:02 am  Reply with quote
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I agree if the farm takes tax payer subsides there should be stipulations. I guess the flip side is less acres in CRP. Again i am for more opportunity for everyone to hunt but private property is just that at the landowner get to make the decision. Villainizing them is certainly not productive they own the land and a buck is a buck. Everyone has the right to pursue a living. Is paying to park a cheap buck? paying rent a cheap buck? If you leased a property to have a place to hunt would you open it to the public? Doing a task and getting paid for it is not the only way to make money. taking risk investing and making a cheap buck is also a way to make a living. I just don't think we need anymore us vs them. Out west in the wide open spaces with 20 miles between houses i get it. The midwest and east it would be a free for all of road hunting and complete disrespect for the land. I guess to drill down to the point just remember someone else is paying for and maintaining that private property. I would wager that 99% of the folks on this board understand and respect that and my rant was probably pointless. Just felt like private property owners were being villainized and felt like they didn't deserve it. On the grazing issue on federal land I side with the citizens it's not a good deal for them and needs renegotiating. I
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 9:53 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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I'm not villainizing landowners as a whole at all. I have even been in the odd situation of being put in charge of granting or denying permission to hunt on somebody else's property. The first time I received a phone call it felt a little weird. I laid out our expectations and we never did have any problems with any of the hunters. Sometimes I joined them, after all we were hunting for the same geese.

My points were largely ethical concerning being appreciative toward those that help you and even make your way of life possible, as opposed to taking advantage of someone. That goes both ways for both groups and each side of the fence too. There is just so much "what's in for me" attitude in our society and a lot of it comes from people who don't even acknowledge all that has already been done for them. They just want "more".

That is a problem and far exceeds the boundaries of the topic discussed here, but it is ultimately what is going to end a way of life for hunters. Eventually the family farms will disappear because of it too as corporations happily buy up farms that the next generation would rather sell.

In the end, leasing will eliminate itself. As more hunters quit, there will be fewer people available to pay for access. Making that extra buck is just a Band-aid. The goose that lays the golden egg is putting the noose around its own neck. But...then who is left to pay the bills for wildlife management? Who is left to fight the animal rights movement?

As mentioned, and rightly so, there are divisions among us and we seem to do a good job of shrinking our own minority. Traditions are dying and being swept aside. If we care about passing on our traditions, we can't hand the new kids an empty sack.

Solomon was right when he warned about being on guard against all forms of greed, greed isn't just about money, it includes sacrificing the needs or desires of others for what we want for ourself. Always think about how your decisions affect others. And that right there, is why I merely want the wishes of North Dakotans to be carried out in their legislature.

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Brewster11
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 12:43 pm  Reply with quote



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WyoChukar, leasing is unlikely to extinguish itself, because the law of supply and demand will ultimately dictate rates and access. The ND farmers are in the business to make money, plain and simple, not to look after the financial circumstances of hunters.

As the economics of hunting evolve, we should expect to see competition for hunters, i.e. customers, by outfitters, landowners, wildlife agencies, and other stakeholders. And the management of hunting lands should be expected to improve materially, i.e., more birds, better access, less hunting congestion, and more limits. Yes it will not be free, but should we not rightfully expect to tender some of our hard earned dollars for something we take and enjoy?

B.
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 1:58 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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I guess I don't see how access can improve with increased competition by outfitters who pay to run the rest of us off. Not when the model of business seems to be testing how much more the market will continue to bear. There always seem to be more wealthy folks who can afford it.

Less hunting congestion may come as result of fewer hunters as fewer can either afford it or simply conclude it's not worth the price. The phenomenon of declining participation due to cost is well documented now. Cost is also what has caused a lot of congestion. Public lands and walk in areas are now crowded with people who used to just knock on doors. We used to be pretty spread out; economics is concentrating us into areas of affordable access.

This financial reality is making some of those crowds too. In order to afford a road trip, six guys will get together and split costs when once upon a time it wasn't necessary. To further complicate things, the same landowners who don't mind a couple hunters on their place, often are soured on the idea of an invasion force with a whole pack of dogs. i know plenty of landowners who feel that way.

There is also the matter of the straw that breaks the camel's back. The more additional costs that get attached to travel or hunting, let alone a combination of the two, the greater the likelihood that someone just can't justify the expense or even fund it. It's tough enough for people to travel. When it takes all they have to make a journey, they may not even have enough money left to pay lease/ fee/ guide/ outfitters, etc.

Do I expect everything to be free or the cost of hunting to never increase? No. But when I have paid in so many ways already, I have to draw the line somewhere. How do i determine where to draw that line? I look at the outcome. I look at who I am helping and who, if anyone, I am hurting.

That's why I push for my tax dollars to go to Farm Bill programs rather than be squandered on things I am opposed to. After that, I don't submit to being "double dipped" because a publicly owned resource that I helped pay to raise as a byproduct of daily operations just happens to wander across a property line. I can help farmers in ways that don't pull the rug out from under the next generations. If there is one thing I have learned about "pay to play" mentality, it's that nothing is ever enough. $20 soon becomes $50, soon becomes $100, soon becomes $300...

If I were handed unlimited wealth tomorrow I still would not pay fees and leases, not when I can see the writing on the wall and have already witnessed the outcomes. I know young guys who had to quit hunting because they moved somewhere that is all access fees.

I am a man who is naturally driven to help. Whether I am helping farmers, other hunters, or a stranded motorist matters little. I have lived an incredible life on meager means. There are young kids out there who deserve a chance to do the same. I want to pass on these possibilities that I have discovered and fear that it may become pointless. It is of no use to hand them a rapidly leaking bucket of future, and this frustrates me.

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 11:53 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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WyoChukar,

You make some good points that I agree with, and I am very lucky to live in Pa where we have so much State Forest and State Game Commission land, to openly hunt. We are much safer here in Pa because of our Pa Constitution having our Game laws written directly into it.
The PGC money can not be stolen and put into the general operating fund, as with many other states.

Here in our Potter/Tioga mountains our way of life is still secure and our children still have the ability to grown up as we want them to. We are still able to provide a way of life that you and I both cherish. Although the cost has definitely risen.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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