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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:52 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Gentlemen,

Recently some people on another forum questioned whether the Sir Joseph Whitworth company ever made Damascus Barrels. On page 50 of William Brophy's L.C. Smith Shotguns book it reads " A total of 200 A2 Automatic Ejector Guns were made by the Hunter Arms Company. The Barrels were either Sir Joseph Whitworth steel or choice Damascus barrels." Because of these peoples attitudes, I did not educate them as to Hunter Arms and Sir Joseph Whitworth business dealings.

Hunter Arms Company had Sir Joseph Whitworth make both these type barrels specifically for the L.C. Smith double guns, our #2 Pre-production 20 gauge was special ordered with these Damascus barrels, on a standard frame. Although few in number they do exist, mostly on the A2 & Monogram L.C. Smith double guns. Bill Brophy was absolutely correct. The Damascus barrels were available on the A2 10,12, and 16 gauge to start out, and the 12 and 16 gauge on the Monogram gun. Starting in 1896 8,10,12 and 16 guns were then available, with these Damascus barrels. From 1900 to 1905 all Monogram light weight guns, had Krupp Steel Barrels after 1907 the Whitworth Barrels could be order.

Hunter Arms produced many pre-production special order guns, never say never when talking about L.C. Smith double guns, usually you end up with egg on your face when you do, as somebody hands you the gun to look at.

As Bill Brophy said, if you had the money, Hunter Arms would make you the gun, any way you wanted it.


Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:18 pm  Reply with quote



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Agreed. The Syracuse Lefever guns were that way too, as in they made whatever the customer ordered. There were a lot of chamber length options in 12 ga. alone.

There are always misconceptions with old doubles. I recently had someone claim that Parker weights were determined entirely by frame size. I pointed out a pair of 10 ga. guns built on the small #2 frame. One weighed 7 lbs. 2.5 oz. and the other was over 10 lbs. Several #3 frame guns were 8-9 lbs. He didn't want to believe that how the barrels were struck determined more about weight than frame size did.

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old colonel
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:44 pm  Reply with quote
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Pine Creek/Dave wrote:
Gentlemen,

Recently some people on another forum questioned whether the Sir Joseph Whitworth company ever made Damascus Barrels. On page 50 of William Brophy's L.C. Smith Shotguns book it reads " A total of 200 A2 Automatic Ejector Guns were made by the Hunter Arms Company. The Barrels were either Sir Joseph Whitworth steel or choice Damascus barrels." Because of these peoples attitudes, I did not educate them as to Hunter Arms and Sir Joseph Whitworth business dealings.

Hunter Arms Company had Sir Joseph Whitworth make both these type barrels specifically for the L.C. Smith double guns, our #2 Pre-production 20 gauge was special ordered with these Damascus barrels, on a standard frame. Although few in number they do exist, mostly on the A2 & Monogram L.C. Smith double guns. Bill Brophy was absolutely correct. The Damascus barrels were available on the A2 10,12, and 16 gauge to start out, and the 12 and 16 gauge on the Monogram gun. Starting in 1896 8,10,12 and 16 guns were then available, with these Damascus barrels. From 1900 to 1905 all Monogram light weight guns, had Krupp Steel Barrels after 1907 the Whitworth Barrels could be order.

Hunter Arms produced many pre-production special order guns, never say never when talking about L.C. Smith double guns, usually you end up with egg on your face when you do, as somebody hands you the gun to look at.

As Bill Brophy said, if you had the money, Hunter Arms would make you the gun, any way you wanted it.


Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man


Are you are saying Sir Joseph Whitworth’s firm produced Damascus steel barrels and sold the same to LC Smith?

What is your evidence for the statement?

I know LC did buy Whitworth fluid steel barrels and put them on some their guns. I am not aware of any Whitworth made Damascus either in LC guns or in any English guns.

I checked both the Brophy and Houchins books, as well as my Greener and Burrard books and find no mentions of Whitworth Damascus, only Whitworth Fluid Steel.

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Michael
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:56 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Old C,

I quoted Bill Brophy's book in my post, he is the Historian of L.C. Smith guns, Hunter Arms only bought barrels from Krupp & Whitworth for their early guns, believe what else you would like too, there are always those that do.

Now if these choice Damascus Barrels came from some where else, meaning some other maker, Bill Brophy never wrote about it. The quote on the Whitworth steel and choice Damascus Barrels is right in his book.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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old colonel
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:43 pm  Reply with quote
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I disagree with your reading of Brophy’s book. It is grammatically incorrect and misleading The quote clearly states

“Barrels were either Sir Joseph Whitworth steel or choice Damascus barrels." The quote is really from the LC catalog describing their options on higher grade guns, the A2 in this case. It does not pontificate the sole sources of barrels being only from Krupp or Whitworth, my reading of every indexed mention of Damascus in the brophy book does not, nor have I found the specific quote from Brophy you claim stating two sole sources.

Bottmline is it does not state the source of the Damascus was Whitworth. Further given that I can find no other reference or listing of a gun with Damascus barrels by Whitworth I am left with the conclusion that Whitworth did not make Damascus.

You are misleading people on this board without real evidence. By your logic that LC only purchased barrels from Krupp and Whitworth, I could equally assume Krupp made Damascus.

Moreover Houchins noted in a post on the LC Smith website that L.C.Smith damascus barrels are primarily from English Mfg's with the exception of Chain that came from Belgian sources. He does not reference Whitworth as a source for Damascus whatsoever, and I cannot find anyone save you saying Whitworth did.

Can you point to an authoritative source that Whitworth even made Damascus?

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Michael
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old colonel
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:01 pm  Reply with quote
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Pine Creek/Dave wrote:

.......
Now if these choice Damascus Barrels came from some where else, meaning some other maker, Bill Brophy never wrote about it. The quote on the Whitworth steel and choice Damascus Barrels is right in his book.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man


Brophy failed to address many details in his book which Houchins addresses in his. Your logic that Brophy and Houchins do not detail someone other than Whitworth as the source of the Damascus it must therefore be them is flawed. Neither definitively state anything about Whitworth as the source for Damascus , your blatant misreading of the grammar in the catalogue is just wrong.

It states “Sir Joseph Whitworth steel or choice Damascus.” For your reading to be correct it would need to state “Sir Joseph Whitworth’s fluid steel or his choice Damascus.”

Both Sir Joseph Whitworth steel, which was commonly understood to be is compressed fluid steel, and choice Damascus are steels. Your reading of the line is nonsense.

Nowhere in a single one of eight LC catalogs I have looked at say anything about Whitworth being a source for Damascus.

Nowhere in exhaustive internet searches can I find a reference to Damascus steel by Whitworth.

To rely on your view is to accept that Whitworth secretly produced Damascus and marketed it solely to LC Smith for their high grade guns.

Your reliance on the misreading of a single line is not much of an argument without a single example of a Whitworth manufactured set of Damascus barrels.

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Michael
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canvasback
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:23 am  Reply with quote



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Completely agree with OC. Grammatically incorrect to read that quote from Brophy and imagine he means Whitworth made Damascus barrels.

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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:17 am  Reply with quote
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1893 Chas. Godfrey, N.Y. catalog courtesy of Tom Archer

A2 offered with "Finest Damascus"



1895 catalog now with "Finest Damascus" OR "Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel"



The Quality No. 2 has "Good Damascus"

Our best documented information regarding Hunter Arms and the other U.S. maker's sources for "rough forged tubes" is here
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=17ixogftgITEblNUWtmFBv96ZvgjK6eFell8GsAWd-KI
and
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vgxxWD_hui-i629-T1yxwY559DU-xzFFBDVe9ur3mCo/edit

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tramroad28
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:33 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
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Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

Another vote for Elsies with "damascus" barrels, of course, but the reading of those offered pattern-welded barrels as a product of Whitworth.....simple creative interpretation following a pattern(pun intended). Smile

Getting past the misleading claims re Elsies....their engraving, to me, was amongst the best ever offered on an American shotgun.
Let's not insult the brand by needless puffery. Idea
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:48 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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Okay, let's not turn this into Shotgun World! Wakeman will show up and prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that the barrels were forged by one armed Tibetan monks under the eerie light of the super blood wolf eclipse moon.

All kidding aside, the likelihood of varying grades of damascus coming from different sources is very high. During this era, it was even common for some manufacturers to source different grades of fluid steel from different sources to use on different grades of gun. Did Whitworth supply any or all of the damascus tubes for L.C. Smith guns? I don't know, but it seems that investigating the history of Whitworth may provide an answer, if the records still exist.

Engraving? I always thought that the engraving on post 13 guns was a little lacking for the cost of the mid grades, but absolutely outstanding on the pre 13 guns when comparing like grades. I really love the pre 13 engraving work.

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tramroad28
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:09 am  Reply with quote



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Naturally, engraving covers eras and engravers......that and tarted up Nitro Specials posing as special orders are widely known, even on Shotgunworld and in the World of Wakeman.

If Whitworth themselves made the damascus barrels on Elsies then, yes one would assume records and history exist.....records beyond interpreted ad copy.
It is not like shotguns have never been researched ad nauseaum.

Good info should be presented to help us all learn.....bad info should be questioned and/or refuted or it can get spread about the Internet like cord wood 'bout the town.

Sources....should always be open to question.....trust, not to be sneezed at.
If not, then we are simply living in a world based upon artful imagination.
Fun to read but, that is about all.
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:32 pm  Reply with quote



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Gentlemen,

Ok if I misread Bill Brophy's writing, please advise me of the makers name or names, of the choice Damascus Barrels. If it had been someone different Bill Brophy would have listed the makers of the Damascus Barrels in his book. They very well maybe barrels that were made in Belgium, by G Laloux & EH-Lemoine and were supplied by Whitworth to Hunter Arms, that is sure possible. However If this was true Bill Brophy most probably would have noted it in his book. The idents on the Damascus Barrels doc has posted are very interesting, I have seen this write up before, unfortunately it not recorded in any L.C. Smith documentation any where. However it could be true that Hunter Arms also purchased from these Damascus Barrel makers, and no records are available to prove it, Bill was only able to save some of the Hunter Arms/Marlin business documents, before they were destroyed.

Tramroad28,

Tarted up shotgun, Unfortunately you know little about engraving.

Once again the LeFever/Ithaca gun has no documents proving the gun was engraved as a special order at the plant or sub contracted later. I do know this there are some people who want the gun to be a sub contract job very badly. Those who usually jump to a conclusions are usually wrong. Would love to see the documents myself. If you happen not to like the gun, for reasons of your own so be it. Insulting me or the gun is a waste of time, the gun exists I own it. It is a very unique LeFever/Ithaca gun for sure.

I do agree all sources should be open to question.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man


Last edited by Pine Creek/Dave on Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:06 pm; edited 4 times in total

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:59 pm  Reply with quote



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Speaking of odd things from Ithaca/Lefever, check out the EE side plate Lefever that was engraved and completed at Ithaca in 1916. It's for sale on GunBroker right now. On the 3rd page of "Ithaca" in double barrel shotguns.

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:10 pm  Reply with quote



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WyoChukar,

Must be some more of that tarted up Engraving, ya right.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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old colonel
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:52 pm  Reply with quote
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Pine Creek/Dave wrote:
Gentlemen,

Ok if I misread Bill Brophy's writing, please advise me of the makers name or names, of the choice Damascus Barrels. If it had been someone different Bill Brophy would have listed the makers of the Damascus Barrels in his book. They very well maybe barrels that were made in Belgium, by G Laloux & EH-Lemoine and were supplied by Whitworth to Hunter Arms, that is sure possible. However If this was true Bill Brophy most probably would have noted it in his book. The idents on the Damascus Barrels doc has posted are very interesting, I have seen this write up before, unfortunately it not recorded in any L.C. Smith documentation any where. However it could be true that Hunter Arms also purchased from these Damascus Barrel makers, and no records are available to prove it, Bill was only able to save some of the Hunter Arms/Marlin business documents, before they were destroyed.

...........................
I do agree all sources should be open to question.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man


Pine Creek Dave, where is your evidence of Whitworth Damascus? Don’t get distracted.

Still waiting to see a gun clearly marked Whitworth Damascus?

Surely as Whitworth was a hallmark of quality; showing up on the best guns, if such a thing as Whitworth Damascus exist it would show up somewhere?

We all make mistakes, it is ok to admit you misread the Brophy book, and accept Whitworth is excellent fluid steel only and L.C. Smith Damascus came from other sources.

I only posited the Damascus did not come from Whitworth as I understood Whitworth never made Damascus. It is not on me to prove all the different sources as described by Houchins. It was and is on you as you were the one who started this thread pontificating that others were wrong and that Whitworth sourced Damascus to L.C. Smith.

At this point no indication of Whitworth ever making Damascus has been shown by you, much less they provided same to L.C. Smith.

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Michael
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