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Aurelio,

I am really sorry you had to drive all that way and there was nobody to even help you pull on the skeet range. You are really putting a lot of time and effort into learning how to gun correctly. Find a place closer to home and take some professional shooting lessons.

all the best

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1843 Location: Central ND

I do not agree with shooting a shotgun that doesn’t fit.

I have 4 shotguns that are fit, 2 by a professional my 1100 and Beretta 686. I also re-inletted my 870 and my Benelli is adjustable. I can pick up any one of the 4 and there isn’t any huge difference in my ability to kill birds and break clays. Some are better than others at certain tasks however.

I have a 16 gauge Citori that is not fit along with 4 more 16’s and it is noticeable. Can I actually hit with them? Sure but scratching down birds and killing them are two different things.

IMHO the shotguns that you rely on should be fit. I don’t have expensive shotguns but if I did they would be fit.

I believe that there are folks that do stock work that don’t require your first born and week of pissing around to get a gun fit.

Some of these so called stock fitters have no idea what type of stock it takes to shoot well.

Ask around before you put down your hard earned cash.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1843 Location: Central ND

The advice to get an 870 to learn how to shoot is not a bad idea. 870’s much like their cousins the 1100 are easy guns to shoot and easy to make fit. Perfect shotguns to start out with and have for life.

Joined: 08 May 2018 Posts: 196

Dave I ordered the book and Chicago at 16 yards the pattern is 1" to the left.

Wingshooting inconsistencies? First take care of the basics:

1) Got the master eye and the shoulder on the same side? -- Every time? Check it. Do something about it if the master eye is on the wrong side or inconsistently switching. It happens a lot more than people think. Either change to the shoulder under the master eye, or block the master eye so the eye over the shooting shoulder can go to work.

2) Get a decent gun fit. You can do this well enough by yourself -- i.e. know what a correct line-up looks like -- pupil of your eye right down the top of the barrel -- that's it, really. Use a mirror, shut your eyes, mount the gun, open your eyes and see how it worked out. If it doesn't, and I mean consistently, change things -- maybe it's your mount (see item 3 below), or maybe its the comb of your stock. Length of pull is a minor matter compared to those two things. The thumb of your trigger hand should wind up somewhere between 1/2 and 2 inches from your nose with your head on the comb 3/4 to 1 inch is best.

3) To do #2 above, is is best to learn and practice a good mount. Fit and mount are closely related, but it's a chicken and egg thing. Arguably, mount should be learned before a fitting, but for some it might not be easy to get a perfect mount without a great fit. However, perfection is not required, and repeatability of mount is a basic foundation of good wingshooting -- and part of the mount is a posture that enables smooth, wide, swing-range that is horizontal without leaning or reaching at the extremes of the swing range (which can be 180 degrees or more! -- you'll never use it all, though). Putting 70% of your weight on the "front/lead foot" (the foot opposite your shooting side) is a good start, with your nose over your knee (left knee for right-handed shooter), and your knee is over your toe. Nose over Knee over Toe is your swing pivot line. There need be little weight transfer with this posture, enabling a level swing. Do it in front of a mirror and see. Now some will say the swing is never level. True, but over the effective range mostly it is, and vertical variations are easily provided in a stable fashion by use of the torso angle (your back) and the legs -- big stable muscles. Try not to lean or reach to stay on the target line. And for that matter, trying to keep the "effective target line" as short as possible is a great goal in consistent wingshooting -- no great big long looping swings. But that's a more advanced thing for long range shooting.

3) Keep you eye(s) off the gun!! and on the target. i.e. Trust your mount and never move your eyes back to the bead/barrel to check your lead, or your swing will stop or slow down in a major way, and the target will get away during your mind's "calculations" -- this can easily be seen by any good instructor.

Now, having done all that, where you look is where the shot will go. Maintain your mount and follow the target line with your eyes -- preferably both of them. Pull the trigger the very first time the target looks good -- it will never be better if you stop to "check and improve" -- the road to hell is paved with what seem like good intentions/ideas. Yes, you can see, and thus change, the lead, but lead is mostly peripheral to your view. I always say to my students, "You don't look at the bat/tennis racquet/golf club/hockey stick when you hit the ball." "Of course, the bat or other implement does eventually come into the picture, but one's focus should never leave the ball." and "How did you ever learn to hit a nail without looking at the hammer?" Just as in those cases, wingshooting is entirely an eye-hand co-ordination thing. Your body learns to make the picture right. Your conscious brain is not (should not be) in the picture during the event. The conscious part of the mind loves to keep itself busy and thus sure of itself (it's part of your ego) by checking and calculating things. Lock that part of your brain out of the action by giving the eyes the singular duty of focusing on the moving target. You must believe in your eyes and never second guess them during the shot.

The dynamics of wingshooting make it a major difference from the type of rifle/pistol shooting many folks unfortunately learn first. The easiest students to teach are kids with no shooting experience at all. Get them to point their finger at a passing bird or car, which takes about 10 seconds max, and they are already at least half way down the road to hitting targets with a shotgun. The very most difficult students are those with a lot of experience with the "static" type of rifle/pistol shooting. They subscribe to the "aiming" idea -- they just can't believe you don't need to line up "sights" and refer to them during the shot. They long ago committed their eyes and hands to separate and sequential tasks, governed by the conscious mind -- at least as far as shooting goes. Understanding and making the changes necessary for dealing with moving targets is very uncomfortable for them.

I had an adjustable comp installed om my browning citori lightning 16 ga, for trap, normally no big deal but it has grade 3 wood and cutting it up may hurts its value, so I said screw it, now shoot well at trap and look good doing it.

Joined: 17 Feb 2019 Posts: 23 Location: PA

Proper gun fit is nice. You can also adjust to a gun that is a near fit.
It mostly hand/eye coordination. Remember the shots you made without having any sense of the gun barrel?
There are people that can run 25 straight on the skeet field shooting from the hip.
So much for gun fit.

Joined: 17 Feb 2019 Posts: 23 Location: PA

Proper gun fit is nice. You can also adjust to a gun that is a near fit.
It mostly hand/eye coordination. Remember the shots you made without having any sense of the gun barrel?
There are people that can run 25 straight on the skeet field shooting from the hip.
So much for gun fit.

Joined: 17 Feb 2019 Posts: 23 Location: PA

Proper gun fit is nice. You can also adjust to a gun that is a near fit.
It mostly hand/eye coordination. Remember the shots you made without having any sense of the gun barrel?
There are people that can run 25 straight on the skeet field shooting from the hip.
So much for gun fit.

Joined: 22 Jan 2015 Posts: 345

Joined: 08 May 2018 Posts: 196

They want 750.00 which seems like a lot to me ,I could apply that to the purchase of a 870 or buy a nice used 1100 which look like they can be shimmed easily for minor adjustments.Anyway great forum and I have been learning a lot about how important the mounting is.

tramraod28,

My advise to purchase and read Ken Davies fine book is that Ken is/was one of the best shooting instructor in the world. Having seen him work with clients at H&H teaching them to shoot, anything he writes about learning how to shoot is definitely worth reading.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Posts: 2126 Location: Hudson,Wy

For what it is worth, here is my take. First, eye dominance was mentioned, however there is another aspect that specifically applies to SxS guns. That is the matter of what I would call mild dominance. In cases where the dominant eye is barely dominant, it is not uncommon for the non dominant eye to also pick up on the sighting plane and cause issues with shooting to one side, a good ways to the side.

Now in your case, you are shooting only slightly left, even with an O/U, at the pattern board so I won't say this necessarily the problem. However, aiming at a board is a lot different than swinging on a moving target where the subconscious takes over performing a lot of the mental tasks, so consider it a possibility if you only shoot poorly with a SxS.

In terms of gun fit, if the gun consistently points to the side, you are consistently half way to a miss each time you bring it up. I check gun fit by focusing on an object (corner of a ceiling, light bulb, whatever) and then mounting the gun as I would in the field, with my eyes closed. Then I open my eyes and see where the gun is naturally pointing. Repeat this a dozen times to insure consistent results. My guess is that the rib is going to be pointing left when you open your eyes. It's fairly common unless you have thin cheeks, plus you have indicated that you are hitting to the left. I often need to remove a little wood from a stock to let my right eye line up behind the rib.

It is worth mentioning that there is great value in practicing gun mount with an empty shotgun to improve upon this important aspect of field shooting.

If my gun doesn't fit, I alter it. Period. I know some people worry about collector value and such nonsense, but in England, it is expected that a fine gun be altered for it's owner. You wouldn't keep a car if you couldn't reach the steering wheel comfortably so why shoot a gun that stacks the deck against you?

Buying another cheap gun to avoid altering the one you like will only help if that new gun just happens to fit you. If not, well you're right back where you started and now have less money to alter the gun that you do like.

It may be well to go to a store with a large selection of old guns if possible, to try them until one fits. Unfortunately, that is not something that is available everywhere. I recently spent two hours in the Gun Shop in Olathe, Ks. Someone had a huge collection of SxS guns in there. I recognized a bunch of them from their internet listings too. Some of them fit well enough that f the asking price had been more reasonable, I would have brought one home. Where I live, we have no such stores anywhere in the entire state. If you are located where you can do this, it may be beneficial.