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< 16ga. General Discussion ~ Pre 13 L.C. Smith 00 |
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Posted:
Thu May 02, 2019 8:04 pm
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Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2799
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa
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WyoChukar,
Hunter Arms was still making standard frame and FW frame guns until 1945 when the Hunter Arms Company went out of business. The Regular Field grade was list at $65 in the 1945 Hunter Arms price list. The fire/cave in destroyed the Hunter Arms Company.
Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man |
Last edited by Pine Creek/Dave on Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total _________________ "L.C. Smith America's Best" - John Houchins
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers |
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Posted:
Sat May 04, 2019 6:41 am
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Joined: 08 May 2018
Posts: 196
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Can't Waite to see it finished... |
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Posted:
Sat May 04, 2019 12:52 pm
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Member
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 3373
Location: The Great Northwet
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Nice looking gun. I would consider owning one, but they are such a pain to re-assemble. One of the reasons I'm a Lefever fan. Those Elsie's do shoot well though. |
_________________ Gun art: www.marklarsongunart.com
Gallery art: www.marklarsonart.com
The man's prayer from the Red Green Show: "I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to. I guess." |
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Posted:
Sat May 04, 2019 1:39 pm
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Joined: 12 Sep 2010
Posts: 1973
Location: Maine
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Worth reading - this was a 1908 16 ga Elsie which … blew up at the Southern. Fortunately no one was hurt. But, look at the thin chamber wall where it did blow. That gun appears to have had its chambers/cones lengthened, too.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=545067&page=all
FWIW, the shell that blew it up was a Herter's Cheddite. Investigation still ongoing. |
_________________ “A man’s rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.”
Frederick Douglass, November 15, 1867, speech in Williamsport, Pa. |
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Posted:
Sat May 04, 2019 1:53 pm
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Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2799
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa
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UncleDanFan,
I have a nice Classic American and German Best gun collection, and I like the LeFever guns very much. Got to admit my LeFever/Ithaca double gun is a serious bird killing piece of engineering. If Uncle Dan would have built more side lock double guns I would own more LeFever double guns for sure. Would love to recover my Great Grandfather 5B gun, still looking for it even today.
Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man
Never got to see this gun or handle it, my Grandfather advised me that it is one great Lefever 16 gauge double gun, that he loved to hunt with as a young man. I have only seen pictures of it in the Uncle Dan LeFever Master Gun Makers book.
LeFever B Grade 16 gauge gun, got to admit I like her a lot. If she handles as well as she looks, it's one great gun.
Click on picture to enlarge.
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_________________ "L.C. Smith America's Best" - John Houchins
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers |
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Posted:
Sat May 04, 2019 4:04 pm
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Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2126
Location: Hudson,Wy
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I looked at that DG BBS thread. I am inclined to believe obstruction as the most probable cause of that burst. Two observations that I pick up on are wall thickness and ammo. Herter's ammo has given me two odd/ weak loads so I suppose it's possible to go the other way, but this level of damage indicates far more.
Wall thickness. .075" is considered minimum thickness at the chamber end/ forcing cone junction. Somebody is claiming thin spot. It's hard to tell from the photos, but sitting here looking at a caliper set at that measurement, the chamber looks to be thick enough, except maybe at the thin spot. However, and this is major, under such a failure I completely expect fluid steel to stretch, which it visibly has done. Thus, I would also expect to find it thin where it has stretched the most, which will be at the failure point.
How the barrels are struck makes a huge difference when altering cones or chambers, as to wall thickness at the forcing cone. I have seen european guns that taper drastically at the chamber end and would never dream of cutting even the cones.
On the other hand, a gun with gradual taper at the breech may benefit from long cone work as it can actually reduce radial stresses applied to the chamber end/ forcing cone junction. Where cutting cones to a shallower/ longer angle becomes dangerous is when said operation reduces wall thickness ahead of this point due to rapidly tapered barrels.
On to my gun. The fella I bought it from is runs an L.C. Smith oriented repair/ refurbishing business (Jerry Andrews). I have not asked if he performed the work yet. I do prefer to do my own with my piloted reamer. If one were to combine an unpiloted reamer and a lathe set off center, that would be the worst case scenario since the lathe can force the reamer cut off center and cancel any self centering tendencies of the reamer. I will say that the work on these cones is very uniform and somebody did a good job. |
_________________ Only catch snowflakes on your tongue AFTER the birds fly south for the winter... |
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Posted:
Sat May 04, 2019 4:48 pm
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Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2126
Location: Hudson,Wy
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One thing I notice, looking at the chamber rupture photo, it's super thin from the breech to mid chamber...from the factory. |
_________________ Only catch snowflakes on your tongue AFTER the birds fly south for the winter... |
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Posted:
Sat May 04, 2019 5:35 pm
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Member
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 3373
Location: The Great Northwet
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Pine Creek/Dave wrote: |
UncleDanFan,
I have a nice Classic American and German Best gun collection, and I like the LeFever guns very much. Got to admit my LeFever/Ithaca double gun is a serious bird killing piece of engineering. If Uncle Dan would have built more side lock double guns I would own more LeFever double guns for sure. Would love to recover my Great Grandfather 5B gun, still looking for it even today.
Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man
Never got to see this gun or handle it, my Grandfather advised me that it is one great Lefever 16 gauge double gun, that he loved to hunt with as a young man. I have only seen pictures of it in the Uncle Dan LeFever Master Gun Makers book.
LeFever B Grade 16 gauge gun, got to admit I like her a lot. If she handles as well as she looks, it's one great gun.
Click on picture to enlarge.
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That B grade is a beauty. Wow. I'm selling an older F grade 12 on gunbroker right now, to help pay for a special order 30" straight grip GE that I bought, that is set up as a heavy target/pigeon gun with a high rib, the only one of it's kind that I've seen. It will go great with my other special order 30" straight grip GE 12 damascus, that only weighs 6.4lbs. When you find something you like, whether it's Smiths, Parkers, Lefevers, or whatever, it certainly is fun to buy/sell and build a collection over time. I think I get just as much enjoyment out of that as I do shooting them! |
_________________ Gun art: www.marklarsongunart.com
Gallery art: www.marklarsonart.com
The man's prayer from the Red Green Show: "I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to. I guess." |
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Posted:
Sat May 04, 2019 5:37 pm
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Member
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 3373
Location: The Great Northwet
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WyoChukar wrote: |
One thing I notice, looking at the chamber rupture photo, it's super thin from the breech to mid chamber...from the factory.
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Wow, it sure is. That sure gives one pause doesn't it. |
_________________ Gun art: www.marklarsongunart.com
Gallery art: www.marklarsonart.com
The man's prayer from the Red Green Show: "I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to. I guess." |
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Posted:
Sat May 04, 2019 6:07 pm
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Joined: 12 Sep 2010
Posts: 1973
Location: Maine
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UncleDanFan wrote: |
WyoChukar wrote: |
One thing I notice, looking at the chamber rupture photo, it's super thin from the breech to mid chamber...from the factory.
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Wow, it sure is. That sure gives one pause doesn't it.
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Two things: in the DGS thread, Ted Schefelbein notes that it appears there is also discoloration, possibly corrosion, in the very super thin area. So a hypothesis that this was a flaw related to corrosion in a very thin area is not excludable. A partial obstruction, a hot shell, anything. Or it could just have been time for that thin area to give way.
One more reason to use low pressure loads in guns approaching the century mark.
Moreover: "from the factory" - as if we needed reminding, CNC and such wasn't invented until the gun in question was rolling into being eligible for Social Security.
2nd thing: opening out old guns makes them usable with modern 2 3/4 shells, but .... As good as the Herter's Cheddite loads are, I don't recall ever seeing pressure information on them. So I would say it's probably safer to assume they are loaded to SAAMI/CIP max pressure and deal accordingly. A gunsmith friend talked me out of lengthening the chambers in my circa 1905 Belgian hammergun by reminding me "those barrels were struck rather lightly to begin with" and couldn't be counted on to handle modern 2 3/4 shells. That 16 ga hammergun has 29 1/2 inch barrels and is slightly lighter than my 20 gauge Parker with 26 inch barrels. The weight had to come from somewhere.... |
_________________ “A man’s rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.”
Frederick Douglass, November 15, 1867, speech in Williamsport, Pa. |
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Posted:
Sat May 04, 2019 10:23 pm
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Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2126
Location: Hudson,Wy
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Agreed. The thin spot at the top of the chamber, the more i look at it, does have the telltale signs of a very deep pitting. Of course, the photos only show so much and again, once failure has occurred, that metal has pulled apart. But there is no denying how thin that entire region is; it looks to be 1/3 safe min. wall. I certainly would not point the finger at chamber lengthening after seeing that. I'm not signed up for DG or I would point this out.
As strange as this sounds, a "pristine" gun may be higher risk than a well used gun that shows sign of a lot of use for a long time. The pristine gun may not have been fired many times at all, while the well worn "shooter" obviously stood the test of time.
Agreed on that Belgian hammer gun. When the slope is steep, changing the cone angle can spell disaster. I should post some drawings. |
_________________ Only catch snowflakes on your tongue AFTER the birds fly south for the winter... |
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Posted:
Sun May 05, 2019 10:51 pm
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Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2799
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa
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WyoChukar,
If the gun had not been worked on (Modified) and the correct shells used in the gun, this kind of failure would probably have never happened. Incorrectly opening up that 2 9/16 chambers for 2 3/4 shells can be a dangerous modification, especially when not done correctly.
What many people do not understand is that you can use a 2 3/4" shell in the 2 9/16 chamber because of the tapered cones L.C. Smith engineered into their double guns. Now this is not a Hunter Arms recommended practice, however even with the new Nitro powders the L.C. Smith gun withstands the pressure and can be shot safely. Incorrectly altering the Chambers and completely removing the cones is a completely different engineering story.
None of the Chambers in our L.C. Smith double guns have ever been modified.
Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man |
_________________ "L.C. Smith America's Best" - John Houchins
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers |
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Posted:
Mon May 06, 2019 4:37 am
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Joined: 12 Sep 2010
Posts: 1973
Location: Maine
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Pine Creek/Dave wrote: |
WyoChukar,
If the gun had not been worked on (Modified) and the correct shells used in the gun, this kind of failure would probably have never happened. Incorrectly opening up that 2 9/16 chambers for 2 3/4 shells can be a dangerous modification, especially when not done correctly.
What many people do not understand is that you can use a 2 3/4" shell in the 2 9/16 chamber because of the tapered cones L.C. Smith engineered into their double guns. Now this is not a Hunter Arms recommended practice, however even with the new Nitro powders the L.C. Smith gun withstands the pressure and can be shot safely. Incorrectly altering the Chambers and completely removing the cones is a completely different engineering story.
None of the Chambers in our L.C. Smith double guns have ever been modified.
Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man
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All true, Pine Creek, but with two big Buts.
1. Going with a 2 3/4 in a 2 9/16 chamber, even an LC with tapered cones, will make the gun kick like the proverbial mule. Then you're up against the wood, and beating the dickens out of the head of the stock. This is a bad idea in any older gun but, as I'm sure you'll agree, particularly so in an LC.
2. My view of the pictures showing chamber wall thickness in the subject gun is that at the point of rupture the wall was maybe 1/3 to 1/2 the thickness of the other parts of the chamber. Lengthening the chamber has very little to nothing to do with removing metal from the chamber wall at the breech face and everything to do with removing metal 2 9/16 to 2 3/4 inches downstream.
Some years ago I had a discussion with a gentleman who sells a lot of older doubles, re lengthening chambers. His take: if you're not willing to spring for proper, short shells (e.g., RSTs), don't get into older doubles. |
_________________ “A man’s rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.”
Frederick Douglass, November 15, 1867, speech in Williamsport, Pa. |
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Posted:
Mon May 06, 2019 9:12 am
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Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2126
Location: Hudson,Wy
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Some food for thought on the altered chambers of the gun in the blow up discussion:
1) Are we are assuming that they were done improperly? If so, the only way the chamber could have become this thin, or the wall thickness at the failure point reduced so greatly, is if the reamer was well out of alignment with the bore/ chamber. The only way I can see that happening is with a lathe where the barrels could be rigidly mounted in a fixture that was off to one side. With a T handle and reamer, turned by hand, the worst case would be a job cut off angle, also bad. The photos don't show an odd taper in the chamber wall though. Also, the previously fired hulls are reported to appear normal, as in not oval shaped at the brass/steel head. This tells me that things were not cut to one side.
2) Lengthening the cones and chambers would only have the following affect on the region that actually failed: the increased expansion volume and reduced resistance (in other words easier relief of built up pressures) would have actually taken some of the stress away from the thin walled area of this failed chamber. The altered chambers may have actually allowed the gun to fire more shots than it should have before ultimately failing.
Recap: That chamber was too thin. It was too thin in the region well before the forcing cones. The only way chamber alteration could have caused the thin wall is if the reamer had been forced to cut off center, especially if kept parallel by a lathe. The photos show considerable possibility of an obstruction (like 28 ga. shell) at the end of the forcing cone. Now if the failure had occurred in the forcing cone or the far end of the cone, I would be on board with the possibility of chamber lengthening applied to barrels struck too steep to allow it. But that scenario would be very easy to see in a photo. |
_________________ Only catch snowflakes on your tongue AFTER the birds fly south for the winter... |
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Posted:
Mon May 06, 2019 9:54 am
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Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2799
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa
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WyoChukar,
All you say is probably true, however if the gun had been left in it's original Hunter Arms configuration, IMO none of this would have ever happened, using either 2 1/2" or 2 3/4 shells.
Yes you are correct my 16 gauge guns do kick with the 2 3/4 shells, however after many generations none of our stocks have ever cracked, from the felt recoil. And while Grouse hunting most time the felt recoil is over ridden by our own excitement. I do not recommend this for repetitive line shooting however. Use the 12 gauge Pigeon Grade gun for shooting Clays, as was intended.
Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man |
_________________ "L.C. Smith America's Best" - John Houchins
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers |
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