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Member Joined: 27 Nov 2005 Posts: 258 Location: Nordern MN

I've been kicking around the idea of getting a pointing breed for ruffed grouse. I'm not in a hurry - probably spring of '08 if I decide to. I've got considerable experience hunting with labs and love them. Have a great one right now, in fact. However, I haven't had a lot of luck while hunting with pointing breeds. Part of me wonders if a flusher is "better" for me. Is there any way to figure out if a pointing dog is a "bad choice", other than doing a lot of hunting with one?

I'm kinda leaning toward a setter, either Gordon or English. I reckon Brittany would be another choice. However, I don't have any experience training them. Any thoughts? One of my biggest hang ups on pointing breeds is their apparent lack of interest/ability in recovering birds after the shot.

Is "Gun Dog" by wolters a suitable training book? I have that and the "green book" from NAVHDA.

Thanks!
NR

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

Boy, I hate to see where this post will lead. Wink

I'll offer my advice, as an owner of an English Setter.
If you find a Setter from a good blood line, there isn't much training to do.
Teach him to come when called, and whoa. They'll do the rest.
Personally, I like the Ryman, Old Hemlock, Pinecoble Line.

I have a Brittany that I've been working with. He's great! We still have more to work on, but he's coming along very well. I have had a little training help from a local trainer, some help from board members, and for the most part following the method by George Hickox. I will admit that Rusty has lost a little interest in retreiving a downed bird. But I think that is more my fault, as I laid off the trianing with live birds over the summer. It was just too hot! Most Brittany's are close working dogs, and eager to please. Good luck with your choice on a dog!

Training Pointing Dogs, by George Hickox
http://www.gundogsupply.com/gehitrpododv.html

ok. hearasy, pointing lab. yea I can hear it bla bla bla, just like when my g-friend goes on and on(just like your wifes, or"life partners") but they get the job done, and good as family members, kinda like rev's kat/dog, only normal, sorta.

Rev, owe you a PM or a call sometime this weekend

We're now on our 5th setter pup, and before each new dog arrives, I re-read:
Richard Wolters GunDog
Bill Tarrant The Best Way to Train Your Gun Dog; The Delmar Smith Method
Jerome Robinson Hunt Close
All 3 are a bit dated and the wing-on-a-string has certainly fallen out of favor, but each gives some good ideas.

Joined: 22 Dec 2004 Posts: 173 Location: S. E. Arizona

I stared years ago with Labs. I soon came to the conclusion that I wanted to run pointing dogs, and bought a setter. I am glad I did. I have had a number of setters, and currently have four (!).

Since you are in the UP of Michigan, I would consider talking to (visiting) a breeder or trainer of grouse setters. Going to a grouse field trial or two will also show you a lot about grouse dogs - setters, Brits, even pointers are running in the woods. Check the cover dog trial message board ( at this address - http://members3.boardhost.com/coverdog/ ) for events near you. They are free and open to anyone interested. You can see grouse dogs work, talk to the people, have a great time. You will learn a lot about pointing dogs and grouse.

There are many excellent setter breeders in the Upper Midwest. One of the best is Jerry Kolter at Northwoods bird dogs in Sandstone, MN. The dogs he breeds are excellent and excel in trials and hunting.

Books? I like Paul Long's book, "Training your Bird Dog", and Steve Mulak's book, "Pointing Dogs Made Easy" is pretty good. The amount of training needed depends on the dog you get, and how often you can get him into the field. The better the pup, the easier the training.

Have fun.

Member Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 3438 Location: Illinois

Talk about opening a can of worms Embarassed

Joined: 13 Oct 2006 Posts: 18 Location: Michigan

Hey NR,

I'm a Michigan grouse hunter. My wife refers to me as bird-brain b/c of my addiction. Smile

I have an English Setter and a German Shorthair currently. I had a Gordon at one time. My GSPs have been excellent hunters and retrievers, and I believe one of their strengths is that they mature in hunting ability a bit earlier than the ES. That being said, My ES is beautiful, and at 4 years old a very accomplished grouse dog. All of these breeds will retrieve (some without any coaxing). I would not have a dog that I did not put through force fetch training anyway, so I wouldn't choose a breed on that basis. If you want a stylish retrieve and you don't want the bird dropped 5 times on the way back, it is a necessity. Although, I love my GSPs and they are great hunters, I have to recommend the ES as a classic beautiful and proficient hunter to follow through the coverts. In my opinion they have an advantage in temperment for family life as well.
With the Gordon it would be more difficult to locate (and more risky) a hunter from good blood lines for hunting rather than showing. With the Brittany, reputation is that the breed is excellent but close working and I want bird finders with some range. With a beeper your dog is easy to locate and if he will do his job and hold the birds for you, you don't have to be close all of the time to maintain control.
As to books, Gun Dog by Richard Wolters is the foundation for the best modern training methods. I trained several dogs on that book alone. Now, with modern techniques I supplement with some excellent videos by George Hickox from Grouse Wing. He is great and makes yard training and force fetch so much easier with use of the e-collar and adaptations of Wolters methods.
Finally, this is a great time to start a new grouse hunting pup in Michigan. What makes a bird dog give stand out performances is exposure to birds. With the grouse cycle likely to peak in 08 or 09, you have a chance to expose your pup to so many grouse, that he will become a polished grouse hunter much faster than one started after the peak. The sooner you can get a pup, the better in my opinion.
Regards,
Bonasa

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

Mod.97,

Since you are from Da U.P. I would suggest you check out these people.
http://www.beirlsetters.com/Index2.html

They are just across the border into Wisconsin. Great dogs!
Mine is Mickey, on there web page. My next Setter will come from them.
Regards, Dave Miles

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

I have run setters, of all types, for all of my life. I live in MN, so, of course, I have friends with labs, and GSPs(German "short-tail" pointers!) and have seen spectacular performances (good and otherwise) from all the dogs.

Running pointing dogs that retrive is truly a form of mental mastubation. It takes a lot of work for everything to go just right-and when it does, it is a thing of beauty. Flushers (usually) come with a basic skill set that requires less work on your part to get good results with.

Be honest with yourself. How much time do you have to devote to dog training? Is this a flash in the pan thing, or are you going to be able to coax the English setter pup you bought that has NO interest at all in retrieving into doing just that? While working 50 hours a week? I went through that with mine, and while she will do it, she is not stellar about it. I put up with it. My Gordon would retrive tennis balls until my arm fell off-at six weeks of age. The only retrieve he ever missed happened when he was 15 and didn't have the energy to swim out to get a woodcock in a marsh. I got the bird, and forgave him. He died the following spring.

My English is a sweetheart, that loves babies and children. My Gordon was mean as a three balled jackel, and hated kids, women and strangers, in that order. My Irish setter was a clown in a dog suit, and while he would have pissed off any field trialer worth his scotch, he was a great bird finder and buddy. As a single guy, he got me invited to many parties for his reaction to the question "Dirty Mike? You 'wanna be a married man or a dead dog?" Telling him to "Show that kitty some 'lovin" was hilarious to everybody, save the resident cat.

It would be nice to point to some breed and say "you get this or that with this breed" but, I have found you get what you get with dogs, of any breed. The case that hammered this home was from a breeder of Golden Retrievers, big money dogs, that a neighbor of mine purchased. Long story short, neighbor ended up with two brothers from the same litter. One was a psychotic hunting and retrieving machine, excellent in the field, that had few redeeming qualities as a pet. The second, was, for all intensive purpose, useless for any and all hunting, un-interested in retrieving, a good pet, and a great watchdog. It worked out OK, as the second stayed home with momma when neighbor went hunting with the first, but, which dog do you want? They were brothers, from the same litter, remember.

I think you better begin with yourself, and figure out what you have to contribute to the dogs eventual purpose. Just my opinion, but folks that are at the point where they are asking about breeds are really a long way from knowing what they want, and what they are willing to do to get the results from the dog they expect. Rough rule of thumb, flushers are less work for the owner than pointers, and pointers that retrieve are the most work of all. You get out what you put in. You may have to decide what to do with a dog that doesn't give you the results you expect. Around here, they were always welcome, but, not everyone feels that way.

Norm and Suzanne Sorby wrote a book about Gordon Setters that should be required reading for anyone involved with any hunting breed, but, I think it is out of print today. The book was called "The Field Gordon Setter-the Black and Tan bombshell". Highly recommended reading, if you can find a copy.

Good Luck. My dogs are the calenders of my life, and my memories of the past are intertwined with which dog was my companion at the time.
Best,
Ted

Joined: 16 Nov 2006 Posts: 367

and Springer.
I'm originally from Ohio, where we had an grouse season from October to March. Got a 3 month old Springer, worked with her during the summer, just using a grouse wing and throwing it in the backyard. Took her, on first hunt, t for a late day run @ "put & Take " pheasants on a public area.
Left the car and started walking, rooster came up 50 ft from car. Second shot winged the bird which lite-down about 30 yds and started running over top of hill. Ginger caught site and ran after it. I was just starting up from crossing the wetland when over the crest come Ginger, head high with a wide eyed rooster in her mouth.
From then on she put her heart into hunting, Especially Grouse, she loved working close and held steady. A number of hunts she would PLOP in the middle of the trail going back to the car and I would carry her.
I could go to public area for late afternoon hunts after the morning YAHOO"S left and she would work rabbits and birds overlooked by others.
THIS IS HEARESY, for trainers but she was the easiest to introduces to gunshots. Tok her to my skeet club, arrived between rounds, talked to manger and other shooters as to my intentions. Tooke her up the road, out-of sight, she was scenting arround when the first shot fired, she started and i just reassured her and walked further allowing her to get comfortable.
We turned around and walked onto the trap field that was active. When she spotted the clays flying she lunged to catch one. I slowly walked her up to the line and had her sit between to shooters. She was concentrating on the clays. She never had problems with gunshots, later in life, she develop a fear of thunderstorms.