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4setters
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:00 am  Reply with quote
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Location: NW Arkansas

"I hope it works." So do I, hearing grouse drum and turkeys gobble in the spring together all through the late 80s and 90s, both in MO and AR, was magical for this guy.

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:35 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

4setters,

I do agree, it would be hard for me to sit on my log cabin front porch and not hear the sounds of the Grouse and the Turkey. I never take for granted what God has provided for us here in our mountains. I hope the sportsman in Missouri are able to make the Grouse project work.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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John1
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:59 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 44

Restocking of wild ruffed grouse was tried in Kentucky 20-25 years ago. Some were released around the area of our family farm. I remember jumping a few squirrel hunting and hearing they're drumming during turkey season. i even found a young one that had been hit on the road.
Not sure what became of the restocking efforts but with the down turn of quail, I would have dearly loved for it to have been a success.

John
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John1
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:01 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 44

Restocking of wild ruffed grouse was tried in Kentucky 20-25 years ago. Some were released around the area of our family farm. I remember jumping a few squirrel hunting and hearing they're drumming during turkey season. i even found a young one that had been hit on the road.
Not sure what became of the restocking efforts but with the down turn of quail, I would have dearly loved for it to have been a success.

John
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John1
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:04 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 44

Restocking of wild ruffed grouse was tried in Kentucky 20-25 years ago. Some were released around the area of our family farm. I remember jumping a few squirrel hunting and hearing they're drumming during turkey season. i even found a young one that had been hit on the road.
Not sure what became of the restocking efforts but with the down turn of quail, I would have dearly loved for it to have been a success.

John
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John1
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:06 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 44

Restocking of wild ruffed grouse was tried in Kentucky 20-25 years ago. Some were released around the area of our family farm. I remember jumping a few squirrel hunting and hearing they're drumming during turkey season. i even found a young one that had been hit on the road.
Not sure what became of the restocking efforts but with the down turn of quail, I would have dearly loved for it to have been a success.

John
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John1
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:12 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 44

Restocking of wild ruffed grouse was tried in Kentucky 20-25 years ago. Some were released around the area of our family farm. I remember jumping a few squirrel hunting and hearing they're drumming during turkey season. i even found a young one that had been hit on the road.
Not sure what became of the restocking efforts but with the down turn of quail, I would have dearly loved for it to have been a success.

John
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John1
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:16 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 44

Restocking of wild ruffed grouse was tried in Kentucky 20-25 years ago. Some were released around the area of our family farm. I remember jumping a few squirrel hunting and hearing they're drumming during turkey season. i even found a young one that had been hit on the road.
Not sure what became of the restocking efforts but with the down turn of quail, I would have dearly loved for it to have been a success.

John
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duckdup
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:16 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2018
Posts: 258
Location: West-central Missouri

In recent decades, MDC has gotten much better at planning and building ecosystems prior to releasing new stock. Elk are spreading from Peck Ranch CA, Bison roam Prairie SP & CA, turkey & deer everywhere, not to mention, eagles, song birds & other non-game species, balds & glades have been restored, fish, etc.

The big risk is there are two vacancies on the conservation commission now and big city media are pushing for urban planners from city parks departments to be appointed. Fortunately the gov is from rural Mo and hopefully has more smarts than to do that.

We can only hope...

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:04 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

duckup,

Seems every state has it's political problems when it comes to Game Commissions.
We were very lucky here in Pa to have had our Game Commission laws written right into the Pa Constitution as a separate entity, away from the Pa General budget.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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S.davis
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:50 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Sep 2016
Posts: 68
Location: KC,MO

Missouri’s Department of Conservation is provided for in the state Constitution, as well. It’s the 3rd-highest funded state conservation agency in the country. And while it has its problems, the “Missouri Plan” remains the envy of most state conservation agencies. The commission is constitutionally mandated to consist of an even number of Republicans and Democrats, so the only “politics” in it is office politics and trying to balance different hunters’ perpetual gripes. The idea that no one from a “big city” should be allowed to serve on the commission is patently absurd, given that the Department, like most everything else in the state, is primarily dependent on tax money from KC and StL.
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pudelpointer
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:17 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 1007
Location: Lancaster county, Pa

I think the fundamental problem is. Survival on familiar territory is low. Then move them to new environments with new food sources and different cover your setting them up to fail. Given that there are no birds left I guess there is no other option. The biggest unanswered question is why did they dissapear in the first place habitat, disease?Grouse live in relatively small home ranges but need huge expanses of suitable connecting cover for the overall population to flourish and disperse. The localized and isolated populations on good cover are very vulnerable to localized disease outbreaks and when the population drops there are no birds from adjacent connecting cover to disperse to those area's. I'm not sure we have a handle on how much habitat and acreage are enough. Is it 25,000 acres or 250,000 acres? It's a big gamble with low odds I hope it works. New Jersey just closed there grouse season for the first time due to low numbers and plummeting populations my guess loss of habitat, connecting habitat and disease( West Nile). It's happening quickly in big parts of PA also. Stressed isolated low populations can't respond. I think dispersion is usually the way population rebounded in the past.
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tramroad28
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:03 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

I've never seen a study that indicated ruffed grouse require vast amounts of connected cover...comparable to pheasants yes, grouse, no. I have seen large expanses of cover being normal to where ruffed grouse live, but not as a requirement of Life.
That cover element, in PA, has always been an issue in some areas of the state as farming, et al has changed and is one reason the Chesapeake drainage and it's CREP has always been a home plus for Mr. Rooster.

Ruffed grouse simply share, imo, a wildness and so weakness not shared with birds which easily respond to R&R or T&T...ie the pheasant, quail, chukar, hun.
MO timbering will need to be an ongoing program and not a one-off.....cutting trees and spotting ruffed grouse around the area is optimistic, at best and wasteful of the bird, at worst.

I wish them and the bird luck but history in MO and elsewhere does not bode well for that type of program beyond photo op.
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pudelpointer
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:53 am  Reply with quote
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Location: Lancaster county, Pa

As individuals they don't need vast expanses as a population to thrive and recruit I feel they do. The unanswered question in my mind is how big is that area. I've posed the question to various Ruffed Grouse biologists and game commission officials with varying answers. All agree isolated small pockets that do not connect to others are very vulnerable and that larger landscapes are better.. Now I don't mean a nice 10 acre pocket of cover surrounded by open timber and another pocket 4 to 5 hundred yards away all tho not ideal in works. I mean 200 acres of good habitat and open field or suburbia for miles from the next patch. The larger view bigger picture is required to help solve the dwindling numbers. Places were Grouse thrive are big expanses upper midwest northern PA, NY, WV. I just question what the overall habitat size is for epp and flow of Grouse populations. I realize there are other factors at play number in Wisconsin and Minnesota are starting to alarm the the folks in the agency's that oversee all that. The birds are dying and recruitment is low. Environmental factor's disease not sure but work needs to be done. No Pheasants here is PA anymore the restoration area where they brought in birds from Montana is anemic and will not sustain any hunting pressure. Like a lot of things it looked good at first and was encouraging but is now sliding backwards. The Crep program is very small pieces along streams in meadow's nice cover for 5 to 10 acres then bare earth clean farming right next to it or a housing development. The only Pheasant you see here anymore come from a crate.
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tramroad28
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:24 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

Pennsylvania used to lead the country in CREP...perhaps they still do...enrollment acres, placement and so on certainly vary but when taken in conjunction with other set-aside programs, the amount is ....valuable and for beyond the pheasants. The amount used to be over 200K...I think tho it is down now. CREP is more than photo op, wherever.
Set-aside programs are not hunting programs....or should not be...at the core.
I would agree tho that returning to the glory days on PA pheasants is unlikely, especially given access and that connectable habitat and farming changes.

Isolated pockets of grouse are vulnerable....from disease, predators, development, shed hunters and grouse hunters, as a start.
PA is lucky in having weather and terrain to aid the bird rebounding....not as much as the UGL perhaps but certainly better than Ohio, for example.

I don't mean a 10 acre covert either.
Personally, i fail to believe that habitat is a cure-all when populations reach a tipping point.
Build it and they will come does not work....always and everywhere.
Additionally, habitat is not just acres which MO may discover .....habitat is countering succession and controlling or at least addressing the myriad of other issues which impact a struggling population of ruffed grouse.
See the so-thought big areas of WV, for example.

It is no question that ruffed grouse are aided by large areas of no people...other than when they create cover thru industry, of course.
Grouse are also aided by terrain and weather that limits access....and swamps and on and on and on.
I maintain that MO's success longterm in the project will require a fundamental understanding of the need to address the bugaboo of age class succession...rather than simply to address acreage and crossed fingers.
I hope I am wrong.
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