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upnorth
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:30 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Posts: 9
Location: United States

Hello, I'm new to 16ga forum, because guess what? I just bought an antique 16ga Ithaka Flues SxS. And I have a couple of questions. By the serial number I gather that the gun was manufactured in 1917. In 1917 shot shells were paper with a fiber wad. I plan to hand load lead and ITX for dove, teal and grouse. Do I need to load paper with a fiber wad or can I load modern plastic hulls with a plastic gas seal like the z16 from BP. The barrels are choked full and modified. BP has a number of recipes for lead and ITX that include chamber pressure. I understand chamber pressure is an issue, so what would a reasonable chamber pressure be? Or what pressure should I stay below. I see there's a low pressure forum as a sub group of this page so this post and my questions may be better placed there, but I thought i'd start here in the more general setting.
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skeettx
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:42 pm  Reply with quote
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Hello upnorth,

Welcome on your first postings Smile

Yes, the Flues is a fine old gun, but does not respond well to warm loads.

I would suppose the chambers are shorter the 2 3/4"

I would stay under 7,500 psi if it were my gun.

I have a Flues in 20 gauge and treat it the same way.
The chambers are 2 1/2 inch.

Plastic stuff is fine, but you will most likely find it choked full and fuller with the
use of the newer shotshell components, and you might wish to load spreader loads.

Again, welcome

Mike

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upnorth
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:18 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 27 Jun 2019
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I measured the chamber, well the gun smith measured the chamber, and it's 2.75.

BPI doesn't have any loads under 8,000psi, so I'll be looking for that CD from the low pressure group
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upnorth
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:22 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 27 Jun 2019
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Location: United States

Regarding plastic components, I can understand the plastic hull, but the plastic shot cup/wad is way larger than the constriction at the choke. I have to imaging there is significant chaos going on there. Of course that's the same with modern guns as well, but I worry about the steel in a 102 year old barrel. They are chokes full and Modified. I'll look into the spreader insert, haven't used one yet. Has anyone used ITX in an old gun, it's about half as soft as lead.
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:59 pm  Reply with quote



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Upnorth,

I recommend the RST or Poly SpredR shells for your double gun, I use them in my 16 gauge Pre 1913 L.C. Smith and my Best J.P. Sauer double guns all the time, great shells for Grouse, Woodcock, Teal, Snipe, Quail Ect.

Have fun with your new double gun!

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smit Man

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skeettx
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:33 am  Reply with quote
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http://www.rstshells.com/store/m/3-16-Gauge.aspx
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PatrickB
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:02 am  Reply with quote
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Congrats on the gun and welcome to the forum.

RST also offers a fiber wad load which I find to provide the best pattern in my old 16 doubles. I don't often need non-toxic loads but do reload Bismuth (with a plastic wad) for those situations.

The low pressure group is highly recommended if you desire to reload for your gun. I don't use ITX but I recall seeing some LP loads on the list if that is your preferred pellet.
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upnorth
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:34 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 27 Jun 2019
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Thanks for the input, I'm familiar with RST, but I got into hand loading a couple of years ago and enjoy it, so I'll be looking for components and recipes to load my own.
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top_cat
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:20 pm  Reply with quote
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I shoot a 1925 Flues regularly. When I got the gun 8 yrs ago, I searched around for information on the gun. I ended up texting with a retired Ithaca employee who seem to know something about the Flues. I asked him about pressure limits & he replied that "regular" 1 ounce loads wold be well within the limits of the gun. The Flues developed a reputation for cracking the frame. This was mostly on the 20 ga. gun with a thinner frame. He indicated that heavy loads might cause more of a problem with the stock rather than the frame due to the age of the wood. The Flues was not known for chamber bursts.
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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:05 pm  Reply with quote
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The gun almost surely started with 2 9/16" chambers. Before using the gun it is critical that the end of the chamber, forcing cone, and every inch for the first 9" wall thickness be measured by a smith with the interest, equipment and expertise to properly do so.

A 20g Flues victim of inexpert chamber and forcing cone lengthening, with a crack at the end of the chamber



Turn-of-the-century 16g 1 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. BULK Smokeless (1165 fps) loads were about 7000 psi; 2 3/4 Dr. Eq. (1220 fps) about 8500 psi. Dense Smokeless was higher.

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upnorth
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:03 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 27 Jun 2019
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Thanks for the input. I don't know that I'm going to find a smith with the tools, know how and interest to measure the first 9" of the barrel. Not sure how to get around this?

What I plan to do is hand load some low pressure loads... somewhere in the 6000s. Then shoot them off a box with a string. I'll inspect for damage. I'll probably try and detonate a couple dozen or so and prove to myself that it isn't going to come apart. I'm rather new to this old gun business, so walking through the process slowly. I bought a 1900 Ithaca 10ga stub twist a year ago that I've been loading with black powder in brass shells, so have one successful experience.

Why do you say it most probably started life as a 2 9/16 chamber? There are some markings on the barrel and action but none of them is a chamber length. Did Ithaca make 16ga guns in 1917 with different chamber lengths? Were they all 2 9/16 which may have been lengthened in the ensuing 102 years? I found a web page that had the serial numbers listed by the year of manufacture but not anything about chamber length.

I'm a little concerned about the discussion of the stock cracking, because, well, there's a crack in the stock. Looks like it's been there for a while.

Thanks for the discussion. I got an email from the guy at the Low Pressure Group this morning and I'll be sending off a check.
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Savage16
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:02 am  Reply with quote
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UpNorth, Just where are you located. That might affect who you would use for a gunsmith. You have to assume its 2 9/16 because that's what they made them as in your year of manufacture. I don't think Ithaca started doing 2 3/4 inch til something like 1936. Someone else probably knows the exact year. You wont know if its been altered though unless you find a gunsmith that can measure everything. If you cant,then you should see plenty of data in the reloading group data for 2 1/2 inch. Another member here, maybe Byrdog??, sells a tool for trimming existing hulls to 2 1/2 inch. If the stock is already cracked you should have someone get it off to be fixed or at least see if it hasn't already been done. Hope you enjoy the heck out of your gun!

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upnorth
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:04 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Posts: 9
Location: United States

Thanks Savage16,

I'm in Omaha NE, the gun smiths here have been slowly closing for a while. I've been using a smith who's associated with a Lock Smith, Safe and Security firm. They're closing the Smithing part of the business abd that's the last one in Omaha.

I brought the gun in and he measured the chamber, with a legit measuring tool at 2 3/4. Now I brought it to him because I couldn't get a good read on the chamber length using my unsharpened pencil method. The transition from chamber to bore was rather smooth so the pencil didn't hang up at the end of the bore. Looking back, I wonder if that doesn't indicate that the forcing cone and chamber have been lengthened?

Anyhoo, 9/16 to 12/16 ain't a lot of lengthening, and I'll be cutting shells down and role crimping shorter rounds than the 2 3/4 chamber, more like 2 5/8 or 2 1/2
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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:07 am  Reply with quote
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The point is that if the chamber and forcing cone lengthening were not properly performed the barrel may be compromised. Just mail the barrel to Steve Bertram in Boulder - 303-938-1996

Bose's Guns in Emerson could do the stock repair
888-695-2673

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Ohio Wirehair
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:56 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jul 2016
Posts: 546
Location: Ohio

I would recommend joining Shotgunworld and asking about it in the Ithaca forum. There is a wealth of knowledge about everything Ithaca there.
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