16ga.com ~ View topic

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

Wouldve been nice to have yesterday as I was toting around a 7 3/4 LB Browning XS Skeet. But who sez an Xs Skeet is not a quail gun? Man, swinging that 30" of bbl onto screaming quails flushing from tangles 5 feet in front of you is tough. Managed to get a couple though.

Are those Calf. Valley Quail and how about some pics of the pup? He was doing all the work while you were missing birds Very Happy

Joined: 23 Nov 2006 Posts: 58 Location: Northeast

Respectfully, if you think buying a 26" 16 gauge SW will turn someone into a quail killer, as compared with the same gent using a 30" over/under weighing 7.75 pounds, you might be surprised. Although the SW will be lighter, the 4" longer barrels on the o/u are not that much of a disadvantage. When was the last time you hit a branch with the last 4" of your barrels (as compared with manuevering the rest of the gun thorugh the brambles)? You may even find that the lighter and shorter barrels are a bit too whippy until you get used to them. Sum: I think you'll find that most of us who shoot our side by sides do so because of the classic form of the gun, not because of a significantly better function out in the field. Silvers

Member Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Posts: 989 Location: Las Vegas

I have an XS Skeet and I can't hardly use it for clays it's so dang heavy! Better get yourself a 16ga. Citori for those quail!

Matt

Member Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 3438 Location: Illinois

Heavy guns are for skeet and the lighter ones are for the field---pretty east to figure out Twisted Evil

Member Joined: 25 Jul 2006 Posts: 781

A nice light 16 ga sterly is a great idea. I have a Parker in 16 and it's a great gun but....a little extra length will temper it's manners. If you can find one that's 28" take it over a 26" any day.

I have a 26" Parker 16 ga VHE and would trade it for a longer barreled gun in the same weight in a heartbeat. The lighter you go the more a little length may be a good thing.

JMHO

Jeff

Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 124 Location: Kansas City

I carried a 22" Spanish sxs for over twenty years and it knocked a lot of Missouri quail out of the air. I must admit every once in awhile I thought 24" might swing a little better but it sure didn't seem to matter in cover. I miss those big fat Calif. quail these Mid-West birds seem about half the size. The first time I shot quail in Missouri I thought they were juvenile birds. These days in Missouri I'll use my 25" chopped 16ga Flues or my 26" 16ga. Citori or 28" Sweet Sixteen if I head into Kansas. All my guns weigh within a couple oz. of 6 1/2 pounds and don't kick bad at all. However, my dad's old Stevens 620 16ga. weights 7 1/2 pounds and kicks like a mule.

If you've been shooting a Citori 12 ga skeet gun, why not check out a 26 or 28" 16 Ga. Citori. These guns are built on modified 20 gauge frames and typically weigh about 6-1/2 to 6-3/4 lbs. They are actually a bit lighter than the 20 ga guns in the same barrrel lengths and configuration and are plenty quick for quail and even ruffed grouse in heavy cover. The smaller gauge Citori models have a tad less drop to comb than the 12 ga guns. your skeet model has a a comb that has about the same drop to comb and heal as a small frame field gun. If you shoot your present gun well, the 16 will too.

Sterlies are one of the nicer classic double guns in many folks opinions, to which I agree. However, a lot of them have stocks with too much drop for folks whose modern guns fit them well. Further, you might end up spending much more than the initial price to fix up an old Sterly. Also, the chambers might be shorter than 2-3/4 inches. Some folks maintain shooting lower pressure loads in a shorter than standard chamber really is not dangerous. However recoil has to be an issue. Plus, the Citori will handle any and all 16 ga loads without a hitch. Some modern loads are just too hot for a Sterlie.

Most folks who buy a Sterlie know in advance they are commiting to a gun that may very well have issues which need to be addressed before the gun will be both well fitted and reliable as well. Old guns can be a real gamble. However, on the other hand, once one fits well and is in good repair, it will serve as well as any other good gun within the limits it was designed for.

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

I can tell you without a doubt that the 16GA 6LB Sterly will handle wayyyy better in the country I hunt for quail and chukar. I am used to light guns with 26" bbls. It just so happens that right now my only gun is a 12GA XS Skeet 30"bbls. It is just too much for snap shooting which is what is required in the country I hunt. You really have a small window in which to shoot. There is no smooth swing. Now that XS is great for pheasant or huns in the open wheat or corn fields becasue in the case of pheasant they are big and slow-just like the XS. These quail explode out of very dense cover in all directions. Yesterday i flushed several coveys on which I took no shot at all. That was mainly due to horizons lines I couldnt see beyond or becasue they flushed on the wrong side of the cover which is a combination of sage brush, willows, choke cherries and russian olive trees. When I did have the opportunities to shoot the window was literally about 1 -2 seconds because of the terrain (in Gullies) or again the cover. It was almost like ruffed grouse hunting in alder thickets-only with exploding buzz bombs coming from invisibility to blurrs in a heartbeat. No, really I can't wait to pick up the sterly tomorrow. May even shoot spreader loads in it for this application. Ordered a Lee shotshell reloading kit a couple days ago in anticipation. I will post pix of the new blaster ASAP.

I really don't know how much experience you have in buying a classic pre WWII douible. However, your thread seems to indicate that you might be making some risky assumptions about these old guns. Like I said, I would not assume that any Sterlie will fit you or even shoot to the same mark you are pointing it at even if it seems to fit. See Rev Doc's thread about his very high shooting Sterlingworth.

Many of these guns were made semi-custom at a time when shooting styles were very different than how we commonly mount and shoot a shotgun today. I can absolutely state they are not all uniformly made. A fair number do not naturally point well for the average shooter. Many have also been altered over the years by folks who did not have a clue what they were doing. Many will not shoot to a point they seem to indicate when shouldered. Only shooting one will confirm what the actual POI is.

Plus, these guns of at least 65 years of age now and some are far older. Many have minor to serious mechanical and wear problems. Many of these minor problems are not obvious or have been cobbled to a short term fix that won't hold up. In most cases, it really is buyer beware with these old guns.

If you have your heart set on one, then by all means get one, but don't go into the purchase without knowing the risks. Try to learn all about the gun you intend to buy first. If you have to buy it sight unseen except for some pictures, then make sure you have ample time to try the gun for fit and function too. I'd also get permission to shoot a round or two of skeet with it. If the seller does not trust the gun to shoot 25 to 50 rounds of standard 1 ounce loads without a problem, it is probably not suitable for your needs. In these cases, a three to five day look is not always enough. In short, go slow and careful here, and also be prepared to fork over some extra money to make the gun right for your needs. Having a skilled and trusted gunsmith at hand is also a very good idea. Anyway, you have been warned. Now its up to you. Good luck.

PS, I've just noticed you've been running two threads about this topic of buying a Sterlie and have already commited to a purchase. Perhaps you have more experience than your thred indictes. I hope so and wish you luck.

So now I hope my posts will help any newer, less experienced buyer be aware of the risks in buying old classic doubles. Its something best done by folks with ample experience and knowledge of these old shotguns, and should not be done on impulse.

There are many more modern and more predictable alternatives available for the newer shooter. In the mean time, if you like these old guns, take the time you need to learn what you need to know before buying one and don't let any of the less cautious or over exuberent classic gun buffs stampede you into a chuck and chance it transaction. Its easy to urge a new guy to spend his money on something a buff might like. Its not so easy to undo the damage if the purchase is not a good one. So I urge patience, prudence and caution with old guns.

Joined: 23 Nov 2006 Posts: 58 Location: Northeast

Mr. Jig, just some additional comments then I'll quit this thread. You said, in effect, that the 30" 7.75# XS Skeet gun is handicapping you when "snap shooting". I don't know if you're aware of it but many of the very best sporting clays shooters are using 32" 12 gauge guns that weigh over 8 pounds. Those guns are used for everything on the courses, from long crossers to very close snap shots. Granted the targets are "viewed" before shooting, and the shooting cage is clear of brush, but the fact remains that accomplished shooters are using much heavier and longer guns than the one that you are referring to, with superior results. IMO it is the less accomplished shooters who generally think "if I could only get a gun in another configuration, I would be able to hit more birds or clays". Also IMO, for hunters in particular that plays out with gents looking for very light 26" guns with open chokes so they can get on the target more quickly, spray and pray so to speak. That will work with open chokes on very close birds where you don't have to center punch the bird, relying on the spread to help hit even with the fringe of the pattern. However the same shooter will often fall flat on his face when shooting with tighter chokes at longer birds because his shooting technique(s) needs work. In net, what I'm saying is the 16 gauge 26" SW will be a fine gun if it fits you, but I don't think it's going to be a magic wand if the 30" 7.75# gun you've used is a big problem right now. Silvers

Member Joined: 25 Jul 2006 Posts: 781

A heavy target style gun is not a problem, and can be an advantage...........

when you know where the bird is coming from,
where it's going to,
when it's going to take off
how fast it will be moving
And when your going to burn 50+ shells and recoil is going to be an issue.

It's also not a problem when you only have to walk a couple of hundred yards a day down a groomed gravel path, and your gun may even be on a 3 wheeled cart.

Snap shooting a light gun can work, and it may be the most effective style for some shooters in some conditions where the shooting is like instinct shooting. But, it has it's problems too and does not work as consisantly well for those long open shots that require a smooth swing and follow through.

Just as no gun is perfect for everything, no shooting technique is perfect. Learning to handle both kinds of guns and having a flexible shooting style is worth working for and fun too.

The advice about the risks of old guns and gun fit was really important. Never buy one till you have a chance to shoot it as each gun may fit differently. Also take the time to learn how to spot trouble on the horizon. You have to know how to tell if barrels are sound, action is on face and whether or not a hook has been peened to temporarily hide symptoms that will haunt you later.

Buying an old double is like dancing through a minefield. Buying a modern target gun is like going to the store for a gallon of milk.

I like the dance, don't own a single modern target gun and have yet to be blown up, but it will happen......

Jeff

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

Jeff-You are absolutely correct with what you stated about the differences in sporting clays and quail hunting especially in the mountainous terrain of the west. Sporting clays is alot of fun and if you shoot it well chance are you will shoot better on game too. However, back in the day before everyone knew they had to have 32" bbls to be an effective shotgunner, we were busy blasting quail chukar and many other birds with 24-28" side by sides. Many times it is snap shooting in a foot of snow on uneven terrain totally out of breath, sweating and trying to control the dog all at once. Again sporting clays is nothing like this....get it....nothing. When I pick up the Fox I will make the most of my 3 day inspection period. Thanks again everyone for your input and warnings and support. Oh, and did I mention that a 7 3/4 LB gun feels like about 50LBS by the time you get back to the car? At that point you wouldnt give a rats*^%&* how smooth yout bbls swing. As for POI, it is important to discover that with all shotguns. Face it, we all know we could find a more serviceable balster than many American Classic SXS's-that is usually not the point. We either crave them or we don't and if you do you learn to know what to look for, yet still there is some risk involved. The safe thing would be to go out and buy a used citori white lightning 16GA. But there are not many American legends left that the everyday guy can experience any more.

Well, I guess that depends on your interpretation of legend. To me, John Browning is exactly that, a true American legend. he was pretty much a self tought gun designer of extraordinary intelligence and gifts--a true genious within his profession. Few will ever even come close to the legacy he has left to the gun world.

The Citori is nothing more than a slightly modified Superposed, one of his more successful and influential designs. Its made in Japan by skilled craftsmen to a reasonably high standard of quality and backed by a commited domestic company with an outstanding record of customer service. Everything about the gun says legend in my book. Folks a century or more from now will be comparing guns of their time to it. It is a benchmark pure and simple. However, because we can still go buy a new one, we tend to take it for granted--probably like our grandads did of their foxes, Parkers, LC smithes or what have you.

Joined: 23 Nov 2006 Posts: 58 Location: Northeast

Excuse me but there is an essential similarity between sporting clays and the scenarios you described. In both cases the gent has to acquire the line of the target (bird) and establish a lead picture. Far too often a guy thinks he can spray and pray with a "snap shot" using a short barreled light gun, often at the expense of a gut shot bird that flies off to suffer and (hopefully) die quickly. Simply put, if you don't have enough time to acquire the bird and establish the lead, you shouldn't be doing snap shots. If you do decide to keep that 16 SW, please be sure to spend a lot of time with it on skeet and sporting courses checking its POI and fit for your physique before getting out in the field with it. The birds deserve nothing less. Silvers