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| < 16ga. Ammunition & Reloading ~ Question on rifled slugs for deer hunting. |
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Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:02 am
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Joined: 03 Sep 2014
Posts: 398
Location: Rochester, MN
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[quote="SweetAndNot16"]
| Cold Iron wrote: |
Thanks for the reply. The gun I am going to use is a Browning 1961 a5 sweet 16 (smooth bore) and am in the process of getting a deer barrel for it, so I will be using rifled slugs. I have 2 questions for you.
1- If I am not pleased with the alignment of my future barrel, would I still be able to shim it, or does this only work with pumps? (I have heard about shimming but never tired it myself.)
2-Out of curiosity, seeing how you were around back then, and I was not, do you recall what year rifled shotgun barrels first came out and what company did it first? I tried looking into this before but could not find much, only they where around in the mid/late 80s.
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You are not going to be able to shim or pin a Browning Auto5 barrel. The barrel has to be allowed to reciprocate rearward with the bolt upon firing.
I sincerely doubt that you will find a rifled barrel for it in 16 gauge.
Now, as Cold Iron pointed out, your best option in slugs for the smooth bore are Brenneke 16 Gauge Classic Magnum.
When I was living in Michigan, back before they allowed pistol caliber rifles in their shotgun zone, I "built" several smooth bore bolt action deer guns. I was using old bolt action shotguns that people had sitting on shelves in gun shops or in home safes. (Cut and crown the barrel, machine a flat and install scope, recoil pad, sling swivels, trigger job) I sold a few, built several for friends and kept one for my own use. The Brenneke slugs were, by far, the most consistent.
https://www.brennekeusa.com/hunting-ammunition/classic-magnumtm/
Now, all that aside, I have a 16 gauge Savage 720, which is a Browning Auto5 clone. Just this week, I took it to a rifle range with some old Foster style slugs (Remington and Winchester). Using just the bead site, the gun grouped well at 25 yards and I was able to hit an 8.5" x 11" sheet of paper at 50 yards. With adjustable sights, I am confident I could do much better. |
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John Singer |
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Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:22 am
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Joined: 09 Mar 2016
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Location: Mn.
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[quote="SweetAndNot16"]
| Cold Iron wrote: |
Thanks for the reply. The gun I am going to use is a Browning 1961 a5 sweet 16 (smooth bore) and am in the process of getting a deer barrel for it, so I will be using rifled slugs. I have 2 questions for you.
1- If I am not pleased with the alignment of my future barrel, would I still be able to shim it, or does this only work with pumps? (I have heard about shimming but never tired it myself.)
2-Out of curiosity, seeing how you were around back then, and I was not, do you recall what year rifled shotgun barrels first came out and what company did it first? I tried looking into this before but could not find much, only they where around in the mid/late 80s.
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1- As John Singer correctly said (but of course  ) you can not pin the bbl. on an A5.
2- Mossberg 500 was the first rifled slug shotgun, I bought one of the first ones. But it was clunky to me and I didn't care for the handling. Remington came out with the rifled 870 not long after so I ended up with one of those but got a Hastings rifled barrel for it. Hastings made rifled barrels for many shotguns and quite a few of us bought them back then. I liked the 870 a lot more than the 500. When my youngest son first started deer hunting here I got him a 20 ga. rifled bbl. Mossberg 500 and he also didn't care for the gun much either, so guess it wasn't just me.
Ithaca got into the rifled slug barrel game late, they had closed the plant in Ithaca and moved to King Ferry. It was the Deerslayer II and while most were making rifled barrels for sabots Ithaca made a limited run of DS II with Brenneke stamped on them. The success of the Breneke slug and original Deerslayer carried over to the rifled barrels.
Ithaca is now in Upper Sandusky Ohio and make the Deerslayer III however not in 16 ga. But they will shoot sabots at reasonable groups out to 200+ yards. With the right shooter.
In King Ferry they also made somewhere around 200 Deerslayer II guns in 16 ga. A guy an hour West of me has had 2 of them for sale for a couple of years. They were new in box one 25" and another 20"with consecutive serial numbers and he was asking $4K for the pair. Looks like he finally broke the set up and has the 25" for sale for $1,750 now https://www.gunbroker.com/item/820978403
I like the 16 ga. and like the 37, but not that much...
Most whitetail deer are shot at 40 yards or less, at least most studies say. The rifled slugs really don't really provide much advantage over the foster slugs in flight. High speed film shows a very slight spin, but not much to make a difference. It is more important to use a slug that your gun shoots best, rifled slug or not.
I like the Brenneke not only because they worked the best in my guns but terminal results. I cut meat at ACME Supermarkets back in the 70's at Towanda and Wellsboro, Pa. so helped a friend process deer for others once in awhile when I was home on leave. And seen the results of a lot of deer harvested with slugs.
Like many from the Twin Tiers grew up in Northern Tier of Pa. (rifle) and Southern Tier of NY (Shotgun). This is the barn where we took our deer and processed them in NY although you can see the Pa. border across the river from here, all shot with slugs.
Most were shot with old fashioned Foster slugs and the deer didn't know the difference. With my 16 ga. smooth bore deerslayer and Brenneke slugs I could hunt the power lines and take a longer shot than most though. |
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| Posted:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:21 pm
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Joined: 17 Jul 2019
Posts: 78
Location: Illinois
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[quote="John Singer"]
I sincerely doubt that you will find a rifled barrel for it in 16 gauge.
I am aware no rifled barrels where made for the 16 gauge auto5. The barrel I am in the process of buying is a "Buck Special Barrel". they are really just a smooth bore barrel with adjustable rifle sights. Thanks for the reply. |
Last edited by SweetAndNot16 on Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:34 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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| Posted:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:09 pm
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Joined: 17 Jul 2019
Posts: 78
Location: Illinois
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[quote="Cold Iron"]
| SweetAndNot16 wrote: |
| Cold Iron wrote: |
Thanks for the reply. The gun I am going to use is a Browning 1961 a5 sweet 16 (smooth bore) and am in the process of getting a deer barrel for it, so I will be using rifled slugs. I have 2 questions for you.
1- If I am not pleased with the alignment of my future barrel, would I still be able to shim it, or does this only work with pumps? (I have heard about shimming but never tired it myself.)
2-Out of curiosity, seeing how you were around back then, and I was not, do you recall what year rifled shotgun barrels first came out and what company did it first? I tried looking into this before but could not find much, only they where around in the mid/late 80s.
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1- As John Singer correctly said (but of course ) you can not pin the bbl. on an A5.
2- Mossberg 500 was the first rifled slug shotgun, I bought one of the first ones. But it was clunky to me and I didn't care for the handling. Remington came out with the rifled 870 not long after so I ended up with one of those but got a Hastings rifled barrel for it. Hastings made rifled barrels for many shotguns and quite a few of us bought them back then. I liked the 870 a lot more than the 500. When my youngest son first started deer hunting here I got him a 20 ga. rifled bbl. Mossberg 500 and he also didn't care for the gun much either, so guess it wasn't just me.
Ithaca got into the rifled slug barrel game late, they had closed the plant in Ithaca and moved to King Ferry. It was the Deerslayer II and while most were making rifled barrels for sabots Ithaca made a limited run of DS II with Brenneke stamped on them. The success of the Breneke slug and original Deerslayer carried over to the rifled barrels.
Ithaca is now in Upper Sandusky Ohio and make the Deerslayer III however not in 16 ga. But they will shoot sabots at reasonable groups out to 200+ yards. With the right shooter.
In King Ferry they also made somewhere around 200 Deerslayer II guns in 16 ga. A guy an hour West of me has had 2 of them for sale for a couple of years. They were new in box one 25" and another 20"with consecutive serial numbers and he was asking $4K for the pair. Looks like he finally broke the set up and has the 25" for sale for $1,750 now https://www.gunbroker.com/item/820978403
I like the 16 ga. and like the 37, but not that much...
Most whitetail deer are shot at 40 yards or less, at least most studies say. The rifled slugs really don't really provide much advantage over the foster slugs in flight. High speed film shows a very slight spin, but not much to make a difference. It is more important to use a slug that your gun shoots best, rifled slug or not.
I like the Brenneke not only because they worked the best in my guns but terminal results. I cut meat at ACME Supermarkets back in the 70's at Towanda and Wellsboro, Pa. so helped a friend process deer for others once in awhile when I was home on leave. And seen the results of a lot of deer harvested with slugs.
Like many from the Twin Tiers grew up in Northern Tier of Pa. (rifle) and Southern Tier of NY (Shotgun). This is the barn where we took our deer and processed them in NY although you can see the Pa. border across the river from here, all shot with slugs.
Most were shot with old fashioned Foster slugs and the deer didn't know the difference. With my 16 ga. smooth bore deerslayer and Brenneke slugs I could hunt the power lines and take a longer shot than most though.
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Thanks for the reply, Cold Iron. Do you remembered what year Mossberg came out with there rifled 500?
I bought my sweet 16 originally to play around with at the range and hunt some small game, but after getting it, I very much prefer the feel of it over the 870 express 12 gauge I have been deer hunting with. That gun has a rifled choke inserted, and if fine and all but I just don't care for the feel all that much. It is a newer gun through, so that might be it. My dad has hunted with a 870 wingmaster sense he got it used in the mid 80s and has hunted deer, squirrel, rabbit, some upland game and shot lots of clay pigeons with it back in the day.it still shoots and handles great, even if it is a lot rougher looking now then it was when he got it. I have handled the new wingmasters, and they just feel cheaper to me. Maybe it's just me.
He also uses a Hastings paradox barrel he got new in the mid/late 80s. Amazingly accurate barrel. I've seen him kill deer over a 100 yards out with that combo, open sights. Shame they never made one in 16 gauge. 
Also, I really liked the photo. I'm a sucker for vintage hunting photos. |
Last edited by SweetAndNot16 on Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| Posted:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:48 pm
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Joined: 09 Mar 2016
Posts: 754
Location: Mn.
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| SweetAndNot16 wrote: |
Thanks for the reply, Cold Iron. Do you remembered what year Mossberg came out with there rifled 500?
I bought my sweet 16 originally to play around with at the range and hunt some small game, but after getting it, I very much prefer the feel of it over the 870 express 12 gauge I have been deer hunting with. That gun has a rifled choke inserted, and if fine and all but I just don't care for the feel all that much. It is a newer gun through, so that might be it. My dad has hunted with a 870 wingmaster sense he got it used in the mid 80s and has hunted deer, squirrel, rabbit, some upland game and shot lots of clay pigeons with it, back in the day, and it still shoots and handles great, even if it is a lot rougher looking now then it was when he got it. I have handled the new wingmasters, and they just feel cheaper to me. Maybe it's just me.
He also uses a Hastings paradox barrel he got new, in the mid/late 80s. Amazingly accurate barrel. I've seen him kill deer over a 100 yards out with that combo, open sights. Shame they never made one in 16 gauge.
Also, I really liked the photo. I'm a sucker for vintage hunting photos.
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Hey watch it who are you calling vintage?! 
Must be either 85 or 86 when Mossberg came out the rifled slugester. The Hastings paradox came out not very long after. And yes 100+ yards with the Hastings was pretty common for me.
The newer Remington's are not what they once were IMO also. Having grown up with a 16 Ithaca a 12 ga. in most everything seems kind of out of whack. Eventually got somewhat used to them, but still prefer a more graceful handling gun.
Thursday will be shooting sporting clays at a small club near here and it is pump gun night, they do it once a year. Hoping that John Singer can make it also I shot with him on 5 Stand Saturday at a different club. I used my 20 ga. Winchester 23. He as always was using a 16. Thursday I will be using my Ithaca 37RVD 16 ga. which Savage16 was kind enough to run it around for me to his favorite gunsmith and had a few things done to it. Already had Briley put thinwalls in it to make it more versatile.
It just feels "right" to me. That 6" between the ears can be a tough place. But also a comfortable and pleasant place to be. The comfort zone is important IMO. Glad you like your Sweet 16 and hope it shoots slugs well for you, I have a new A5 Sweet 16 and after some modifications am liking mine a lot. |
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| Posted:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:52 am
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Joined: 17 Jul 2019
Posts: 78
Location: Illinois
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| Beautiful gun, Cold Iron. Good luck with the shot on Thursday. |
Last edited by SweetAndNot16 on Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| Posted:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:25 am
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Joined: 03 Sep 2014
Posts: 398
Location: Rochester, MN
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| Cold Iron wrote: |
| SweetAndNot16 wrote: |
Thanks for the reply, Cold Iron. Do you remembered what year Mossberg came out with there rifled 500?
I bought my sweet 16 originally to play around with at the range and hunt some small game, but after getting it, I very much prefer the feel of it over the 870 express 12 gauge I have been deer hunting with. That gun has a rifled choke inserted, and if fine and all but I just don't care for the feel all that much. It is a newer gun through, so that might be it. My dad has hunted with a 870 wingmaster sense he got it used in the mid 80s and has hunted deer, squirrel, rabbit, some upland game and shot lots of clay pigeons with it, back in the day, and it still shoots and handles great, even if it is a lot rougher looking now then it was when he got it. I have handled the new wingmasters, and they just feel cheaper to me. Maybe it's just me.
He also uses a Hastings paradox barrel he got new, in the mid/late 80s. Amazingly accurate barrel. I've seen him kill deer over a 100 yards out with that combo, open sights. Shame they never made one in 16 gauge.
Also, I really liked the photo. I'm a sucker for vintage hunting photos.
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Hey watch it who are you calling vintage?!
Must be either 85 or 86 when Mossberg came out the rifled slugester. The Hastings paradox came out not very long after. And yes 100+ yards with the Hastings was pretty common for me.
The newer Remington's are not what they once were IMO also. Having grown up with a 16 Ithaca a 12 ga. in most everything seems kind of out of whack. Eventually got somewhat used to them, but still prefer a more graceful handling gun.
Thursday will be shooting sporting clays at a small club near here and it is pump gun night, they do it once a year. Hoping that John Singer can make it also I shot with him on 5 Stand Saturday at a different club. I used my 20 ga. Winchester 23. He as always was using a 16. Thursday I will be using my Ithaca 37RVD 16 ga. which Savage16 was kind enough to run it around for me to his favorite gunsmith and had a few things done to it. Already had Briley put thinwalls in it to make it more versatile.
It just feels "right" to me. That 6" between the ears can be a tough place. But also a comfortable and pleasant place to be. The comfort zone is important IMO. Glad you like your Sweet 16 and hope it shoots slugs well for you, I have a new A5 Sweet 16 and after some modifications am liking mine a lot.
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I hope I can make it to the pump gun sporting clay's shoot at Byron on Thursday. I would like to see that gun.
If I make it, I will be shooting a 1933 Model 12 Winchester in 12 gauge. |
Last edited by John Singer on Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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John Singer |
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| Posted:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:52 am
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Joined: 03 Sep 2014
Posts: 398
Location: Rochester, MN
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| SweetAndNot16 wrote: |
I am aware no rifled barrels where made for the 16 gauge auto5. The barrel I am in the process of buying is a "Buck Special Barrel". they are really just a smooth bore barrel with adjustable rifle sights. Thanks for the reply.
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I think you will find that the Buck Special barrel will shoot very well for you. I suspect with Brenneke slugs, you should be able to achieve 2" or even smaller groups at 50 yards.
When I was building and testing smooth bore slugs guns, I observed a few phenomena that you may find interesting.
First, as I think someone else pointed out, I was able to shoot my tightest groups from cool, clean barrels. If you let the barrel cool between shots, the groups will be more consistent.
Also, rifled slugs have a nasty habit of depositing lead in the bore. I used a
a solvent (Hoppes #9), followed by brass brush, followed by a clean, dry swabs between shots to get my best groups. Brenneke slugs are harder than most Foster slugs and should deposit less lead.
Second, when I went from 50 yards to 100 yards, I observed that my groups climbed 6 or more inches. I was confused by this at first but after doing some research found out the source of this. Shotgun slugs have two issues that lead to this. The recoil is considerable and they are slow. Their 1400 to 1600 fps velocity means that the shooter is rocking back from the recoil before the slugs exits the bore. This can lead to high groups at extended range. I found that I could eliminate this effect by cutting the barrels at 20" or less. This allowed the slug to exit the bore before recoil is experienced. That is why I cut my slug guns barrels to 19.5". This had an added benefit of a shorter and stiffer bore that helped to tighten the groups.
With longer slug barrels, hold the gun tight to the bench rest to prevent the groups from climbing.
Lastly, and this is just for fun, when shooting at 100 yard targets with slugs, have someone sit about 20 feet to your right or left and watch the target through binoculars. At around 70 yards, when the slug becomes subsonic, it will be visible. With binoculars, you can actually watch its trajectory as it arcs in on the target. |
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John Singer |
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| Posted:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:26 am
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| Interesting, John. It would be fun to watch slugs lob into the target. Our part of WI had "shotgun only" for a long time, but we took a lot of deer with slugs. One I'll always remember was a big 10 pointer in 1985. He and a 7 pointer and a spike came up a wooded river levee at roughly 70 yards. They were across a big tributary that I couldn't cross and wouldn't get any closer. When I raised the gun, which was one of the first 20 ga. Benelli Montefeltros, he bolted to get across the river. The Monte held 4 shells, and i finally plunked him hard on the last shot. There I stood, empty gun while he wobbled next to the river and dropped. There was snow that year and I had to get down the tributary a couple hundred yards to our jon boat, get across, and get up to the deer before someone on the bigger river spotted him as hunters were motoring up and down. We got the 7 pointer the next morning. I think that was the last deer I took with a shotgun slug, and my 2nd largest deer overall. |
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| Posted:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:03 am
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Joined: 13 Oct 2014
Posts: 253
Location: North Shore of Boston
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The only slugs I will hunt with are Brenneke.'
I would recommend spending some time at the range seeing where your gun patterns them.
Then you might want to shoot two or three offhand in order to get the full learning lesson of: smoothbore gun, a big lump of lead, and hand & eye coordination.
To be honest I've shot more deer with buckshot than I have with slugs, the same can be said of my family & friends.
Buckshot isn't welcome everywhere, and a lot of people have unfounded prejudice against it. The trick is to use it at close range, and know what's out in front of you.
Then again you're not going to see a deer much more than 35 yards in typical cover.
I remember hunters in the previous generation of my family talking about hunting deer with 16 GA #1 buckshot, and they did all right.
The only problem with 16 GA buckshot is I haven't seen factory loaded ammo in a number of years, but it wouldn't be that hard to hand load.
My recommended choke for buckshot is 'improved modified,' modified or full will do nicely though.
Oh yeah, I suggest patterning your gun with buckshot - draw a 30" circle on a plain piece of paper, and shoot at it at 40 yards, and see what you think. |
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| Posted:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:23 pm
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Joined: 17 Jul 2019
Posts: 78
Location: Illinois
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| Bill K wrote: |
The only slugs I will hunt with are Brenneke.'
I would recommend spending some time at the range seeing where your gun patterns them.
Then you might want to shoot two or three offhand in order to get the full learning lesson of: smoothbore gun, a big lump of lead, and hand & eye coordination.
To be honest I've shot more deer with buckshot than I have with slugs, the same can be said of my family & friends.
Buckshot isn't welcome everywhere, and a lot of people have unfounded prejudice against it. The trick is to use it at close range, and know what's out in front of you.
Then again you're not going to see a deer much more than 35 yards in typical cover.
I remember hunters in the previous generation of my family talking about hunting deer with 16 GA #1 buckshot, and they did all right.
The only problem with 16 GA buckshot is I haven't seen factory loaded ammo in a number of years, but it wouldn't be that hard to hand load.
My recommended choke for buckshot is 'improved modified,' modified or full will do nicely though.
Oh yeah, I suggest patterning your gun with buckshot - draw a 30" circle on a plain piece of paper, and shoot at it at 40 yards, and see what you think.
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I live Illinios. No buckshot here. Definitely will be trying the brenneke slugs. The general consensus seems to be they are the best. I will be trying other brands though, when I get the time. Thanks for the reply. |
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Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:25 pm
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Joined: 17 Jul 2019
Posts: 78
Location: Illinois
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| Dave Erickson wrote: |
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Interesting, John. It would be fun to watch slugs lob into the target. Our part of WI had "shotgun only" for a long time, but we took a lot of deer with slugs. One I'll always remember was a big 10 pointer in 1985. He and a 7 pointer and a spike came up a wooded river levee at roughly 70 yards. They were across a big tributary that I couldn't cross and wouldn't get any closer. When I raised the gun, which was one of the first 20 ga. Benelli Montefeltros, he bolted to get across the river. The Monte held 4 shells, and i finally plunked him hard on the last shot. There I stood, empty gun while he wobbled next to the river and dropped. There was snow that year and I had to get down the tributary a couple hundred yards to our jon boat, get across, and get up to the deer before someone on the bigger river spotted him as hunters were motoring up and down. We got the 7 pointer the next morning. I think that was the last deer I took with a shotgun slug, and my 2nd largest deer overall.
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I always like a good deer story. Thanks for sharing. |
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| Posted:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:32 pm
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Joined: 17 Jul 2019
Posts: 78
Location: Illinois
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| John Singer wrote: |
I think you will find that the Buck Special barrel will shoot very well for you. I suspect with Brenneke slugs, you should be able to achieve 2" or even smaller groups at 50 yards.
When I was building and testing smooth bore slugs guns, I observed a few phenomena that you may find interesting.
First, as I think someone else pointed out, I was able to shoot my tightest groups from cool, clean barrels. If you let the barrel cool between shots, the groups will be more consistent.
Also, rifled slugs have a nasty habit of depositing lead in the bore. I used a
a solvent (Hoppes #9), followed by brass brush, followed by a clean, dry swabs between shots to get my best groups. Brenneke slugs are harder than most Foster slugs and should deposit less lead.
Second, when I went from 50 yards to 100 yards, I observed that my groups climbed 6 or more inches. I was confused by this at first but after doing some research found out the source of this. Shotgun slugs have two issues that lead to this. The recoil is considerable and they are slow. Their 1400 to 1600 fps velocity means that the shooter is rocking back from the recoil before the slugs exits the bore. This can lead to high groups at extended range. I found that I could eliminate this effect by cutting the barrels at 20" or less. This allowed the slug to exit the bore before recoil is experienced. That is why I cut my slug guns barrels to 19.5". This had an added benefit of a shorter and stiffer bore that helped to tighten the groups.
With longer slug barrels, hold the gun tight to the bench rest to prevent the groups from climbing.
Lastly, and this is just for fun, when shooting at 100 yard targets with slugs, have someone sit about 20 feet to your right or left and watch the target through binoculars. At around 70 yards, when the slug becomes subsonic, it will be visible. With binoculars, you can actually watch its trajectory as it arcs in on the target.
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I new to the sight, you people know your stuff. I'm gonna have to write this all down
That's interesting about the slugs going subsonic and being visible. Will definitely be doing this. |
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| Posted:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:51 pm
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Member
Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Posts: 9463
Location: Amarillo, Texas
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WHY is everyone copying another's posting and dumping it down and then one or two lines of comment after that????????????????????????????
YOU know there are only so many letters allowed on the internet and then the Black Hole forms  |
Last edited by skeettx on Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:45 pm
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Joined: 17 Jul 2019
Posts: 78
Location: Illinois
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skeettx, I'm new here. Ive never posted on any forum before I came here so I am really learning as I go. I thought when you replied to someone, you copied there post that why they get a notification. Like I said, I'm learning as I go. Any advice is welcome. I really don't want to create a black hole  |
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