16ga.com ~ View topic - Non-Tox Reloading Guidance

Joined: 01 Aug 2019 Posts: 6

First time posting, but I’ve lurked off and on for years now. I posted a similar version of this question over on SGW and was directed here, which I took as a good cue to go ahead and join. Happy to be here.

I’ve decided I’d like to primarily use my granddad’s 16 gauge ’52 M37 Featherweight this season, and I’ll be small game hunting (squirrel with the odd woodcock and snipe) on public land that either requires non-tox or presents enough opportunities for ducks that I’d rather not fool with lead. The gun is choked IC, and after a call to Ithaca they confirmed that steel shot is fine for this barre. They also suggested keeping the pressures “a little low” can help with the failure to extract problems that seem to have come with the move from actual brass to steel “brass”. Given the age of the gun I also figured I should keep recoil somewhat down.

I’m planning to start reloading and would love a little help sifting through components, data, and what, to me, seems to creep in to the BS category. Back in middle school a friend’s dad used to have us help reload before we’d shoot clays, and I’ve read up enough that I feel I at least have some of the basics down. I’ve downloaded the Yahoo spreadsheets, VP80 wad sheet, the TUWSBL1627 wad sheet, BPI’s steel manual, and gone over Hodgdon’s bismuth data. I also called Precision to ask them about their manuals, and they essentially said the bismuth manual is a little old, we’ ll work something up in 1 oz for you. That part I’m excited about, although with the IC choke I realize bismuth won’t cut it for waterfowl. Lyman’s is also on the way. All of that said, I’ve got a few question.

On the component front, I have a few green and yellow boxes of Remington Express Longrange. Inside flap says “SP16” and what looks to be a lot number and the hulls are green. These are the SP Plastic hulls referenced by the spreadsheets and Hodgdon, right? I’ve seen multiple threads about “old” Rem hulls but haven’t gotten a good feel for how far back “old” is.

As for wads, CSD16 and TUWSBL1627 are the same wad apart from Precision’s being pre-slit and can be used interchangeably in recipes from BPI and Precision, correct?

BPI likes to list a specific steel shot size in some of their data, but can other shot sizes be used? I’ve noticed the same trend in some bismuth recipes. My understanding is yes with the caveat that smaller shot might require a Cheerio or other filler, but I’d rather ask.

Finally. Alliant Steel seems to be the go-to powder for, well, steel, but is there any downside to using Longshot? Precision has a Longshot/Ched/Ched209 7/8 oz steel @ 1,366/10,600 load I’m thinking of trying before getting more powder, but if I’d be better off starting with both it looks like I can get them locally. Obviously not the fastest load out there, but I don't know if 70ish more fps tops is worth picking up more powder, and I'm hesitant to go much over 1430s/mid-10,000s given the gun's age.

Thanks y’all. I know this was a lot in one shot.

Joined: 03 Sep 2014 Posts: 398 Location: Rochester, MN

If you have the VP80 recipe sheet, look no further than load #50204.

It is the only load that I hunt with in 16 gauge.

For woodcock, #6 steel is very effective.

For squirrels, I would try #4 or maybe #3.

Joined: 01 Aug 2019 Posts: 6

Thanks John. I've seen that load mentioned elsewhere, and I'd probably be all over it if I were shooting a more modern gun. I'm just not sure I want to put a load That fast through a gun somewhat famous for splitting at the wrist.

Do you find the magic miracle mica dust worthwhile? I've had a tough time figuring out how much the additional components from that wad sheet benefit a load and how much is just up selling. Honestly the same could be said for a lot of their data, but that sheet in particular lays it on. Thanks again.

Joined: 03 Sep 2014 Posts: 398 Location: Rochester, MN

I have not used the mica dust. I had some at one time but never used it.

I cannot imagine that load could damage an Ithaca 37.

The wrist is a weak spot in that gun design. I repaired one for a guy recently.

It is definitely your gun. That load is the only steel reload that I have experience with.

Joined: 09 Mar 2016 Posts: 753 Location: Mn.

I can't help with the steel, I only load for lead. And buy Kent Bismuth when non tox is required. I do have 12 lbs. of Tungsten 15 g/cc I got for $1.40 an oz. but haven't loaded it yet. Heavyweight\Tungsten would work well in your IC choke like steel it patterns tight. I don't trust BPI data at all however unless someone has pressure tested it independently. I do trust that John Singer guy though, I shot sporting clays with him last night and he is working on one of my guns now.

I am down to 8 Ithaca 37's 5 of which are 16 ga. It is the gun I grew up with. They are light, 37 Featherlight is the full name, as you push velocity you will be feeling it. So I try to keep my velocity somewhat sane.

As far as the stock cracking goes first make sure the through bolt is snug. As the wood shrinks as it ages and dries the stock bolt gets loose and that contributes to the infamous Ithaca crack.

The other issue that contributes is that many would oil the gun well then stand it upright in the case or safe. The oil runs down and soaks the head of the stock making it weak. Sometimes even to the point of the wood being punky. I have soaked buttstocks in acetone before where there was so much oil that floated to the top it looked like an oil spill.

The wood to metal mating surface is very narrow, not a lot of wood. Any high spots will cause uneven pressure and the wood to split.

In addition to the standard head crack

If the stockbolt is loose they can also chip or crack down around the trigger guard due to pressure.

Shot my 16 ga. 37RVD last night and had a stocksmith work on it this summer thanks to Savage16 running it around for me. Some glassbed the head of the 37 stock and I asked the stocksmith about that and he said there was no need for it, he relieves any pressure points and provided more clearance in stress areas. Time will tell.

But keeping the stockbolt snug is very important.

Ithaca gun in Ohio still sells 16 ga. stocks but they are the newer style and bit steeper radius on the grip. With the prewar style forearm. A grade will run you $300 and AAA is $600

My waterfowl gun is AAA Ohio wood and I like it a lot.

You could always get Ohio wood for it and hang on to your grandfathers original stock. Just a thought.

Joined: 24 Jul 2016 Posts: 548 Location: Ohio

I shoot 1 0z of Bismuth at about 1200fps out of my 37's. It's easier on the old stock and old shoulder. I try not to shoot over 40 yards and it kills anything I can manage to hit. Like Cold Iron I use a Ohio made 12 gauge for heavy waterfowl loads. With the old full and modified 16's I just feel better all the way around with Bismuth.

Joined: 01 Aug 2019 Posts: 6

Thanks y'all, all good info to have. I might eventually try out that fast load, but on top of everything else about it I'm just not sure I want to fuss with buffer and hammer my shoulder to shoot some squirrels. Waterfowl is largely incidental, at least for now.

I'll definitely check and make sure everything is snug boltwise. Those photos were incredibly helpful and the stock is gorgeous. That might be something I do next season. I wouldn't hate having the metal cleaned up and possibly reblued either.

I'll hit the pattern board once I get some bismuth loaded and see how it looks. Hopefully I can keep the steel to a minimum, and I'll be surprised if this thing weighs more than my 20 ga O/U so I'm trying to be at least somewhat aware of recoil. Good to hear the slower bismuth works for you. I've had a soft spot for these guns for years and am already thinking a 26" mod choke might be nice to have around haha.

Joined: 22 Feb 2019 Posts: 63 Location: United States

the reason that these stocks all crack the same way is that the kiln dried walnut will still shrink so in 5 or 10 years the stock is a tiny bit loose at the receiver but not enough to notice. The recoil begins to make the steel receiver smack the wood. In time the wood gives way. I have tightened the stock on 37 ns from the 40's and 50's and taken up as much as 2 full turns of the screw. So I recommend checking this out using a large flat screwdriver and a small flashlight so you can see what your doing. You must be sure the blade of the screwdriver is centered in the slot of the screw head or you may possibly crack the stock by catching the side of the screwdriver blade on the very dry wood. there are two head shapes. One is round and Ithaca made a driver that fit over the head with a cross piece that fit in the slot so there was no chance of turning it out of the slot. The other shape was a hex with a slot. For these I ground a 1/2" socket to reduce the wall thickness and assure that the socket did not bind in the hole of the stock. using a 1/4" drive extension and a 1/4" ratchet on the special socket I can tighten the bolt easily.

Joined: 09 Mar 2016 Posts: 753 Location: Mn.

Joined: 01 Aug 2019 Posts: 6

Checked the stock bolt and it's nice and snug. Looks like the butt plate has been off in the past, so there's always a chance it's been tightened up in the past.

Oh man those are sweet. I especially like the wood on that middle one. Do you notice much of a difference shooting your Ohio stocked gun? The vast majority of my shooting has been with a 20 gauge O/U so the newer stock might actually be closer to what I'm used to. I should really go find a place to handle a few, just weighing options for uh down the road. It seems like I could get a 26" with a bad stock and have it upgraded for about the same cost as a nice original stock.

OH Wirehair would you mind sharing the particulars of your bismuth load? I've got a few boxes of Fios and what I believe are Rem SPs that I need to shoot. I'm leaning towards Rem hulls for bismuth and Cheds and Fios for steel mainly due to data availability. I don't want to fuss with the SP16 wad in the euro style hulls plus I figure that'll make it easier to keep shells straight when I want to have options on hand.

Find attached a couple more photos regarding the infamous M37 buttstock cracking that Cold Iron so aptly describes above. The first shows the stock off a M37 16 gauge I bought about 1978 (top photo, left side). The blue was gone and the buttstock wobbled at full tightness due to soft/missing wood. This problem resulted from excessive oil infiltrating the buttstock. I took the gun to the mouth of the Mississippi and shot a limit of 10 ducks a day for a three day trip. When I got back the lack of blue resulted in a fine nice red patina from the brine water where I hunted. Thinking I would use it a lot for duck hunting, which I did, I had it parkerized. Finally, around the late 80s, I put a piece of Fajen walnut on it, trying to duplicate the original stock/checkering (top photo, right side) (not quite possible, the grip radius is slightly shorter, and there was slightly too little wood behind the trigger guard).

Since putting the Fajen wood on the gun, the action has been properly oiled and the gun has been set muzzle down in the safe. And the through bolt has been kept tight. No oil has infiltrated the stock since, even though about 30 years has passed.

The other photo shows the front of the original buttstock--look at the oil that ruined the stock!

Don't disturb the dog; he's resting up for Minnesota in a couple of months.

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2gVfb5M]

[/url]m37butt2 by Michael Widner, on Flickr
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2gVfc8t]

[/url]m37butt1 by Michael Widner, on Flickr

Joined: 03 Sep 2014 Posts: 398 Location: Rochester, MN

This past spring, I repaired the stock on an Ithaca 37, 12 gauge for the father of a kid on the local trap team.

The gun was purchased for a few pennies at a garage sale. The top half of the wrist was missing. Like the 2nd photo Cold Ion showed above. There were 3 additional cracks like at the trigger.

I had to soak the stock in acetone for 3 days to remove the oil.

I epoxied and pinned on new wood, drilled and pinned the cracks with bamboo dowels. I then rasped and sanded the new wood to shape.
Then I refinished the stock.

I saw the guy shooting trap with the gun a couple of weeks ago.

The Ithaca 37 requires the full contact of the metal to the wood on the face of the stock or the wood will eventually fail.

BTW: That BPI steel load at 7/8 oz is rather mild in recoil.

Joined: 01 Aug 2019 Posts: 6

Welp I'll be storing it muzzle down from now. It looks like it hasn't absorbed much if any oil, but it's good to know the damage is repairable.

That's a good thing to rest up for! Nice looking dog for sure. We're planning for a second dog, and after considering a few of the woolies I think we're back to setters. They're tough to beat. My wife thinks we should get one of each, and so far I haven't found a reason to disagree.

Joined: 18 Apr 2018 Posts: 28 Location: Alaska

Regarding the high pressure/failure to extract problem that you mentioned. I ran into that with a 1953 model 37 that I bought a couple of years back. I replaced the extractor and spring. I had to clean up a casting line under the hook with a file, and I replaced the ejector and spring while I had the bolt out. No failures to extract since.