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Joined: 12 Nov 2018 Posts: 40 Location: Alcoa, TN

How much can the 16 ga 2&3/4" shell length vary?

I know some of the Winchester Model 12's can be picky when it comes to ammo, but I have found that mine doesn't like the purple hulls from Federal (the ones I really want to shoot!).

I have taken some before shot comparisons of shell length, but haven't managed to take any after I have shot the shells.

Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Posts: 2125 Location: Hudson,Wy

In my collection of hulls I find the following. From shortest to longest: Remington Game load (RGL), Win compression formed, Herter's/ Cheddite, and Federal. Bear in ming that RGL's vary in length though.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1841 Location: Central ND

As long as a shell marked 2 3/4" is not over 2 3/4" all is well. The actual dimension of an uncrimped shell is 2.760" -0.100".

Finished shell length on a fold crimped shell is 2.440" -0.250".

1/4" is a lot of tolerance so.......nothing to be concerned about.

AND for my Model 12 16 gauge guns,
I find the 2 1/2" ammo ejects the best.

Mike

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1841 Location: Central ND

Forgot to mention, in my Model 12 I use 2 5/8" Fiocchi hulls, which eject very nicely.

Joined: 12 Nov 2018 Posts: 40 Location: Alcoa, TN

So, is it just a fault with my M12 that it does not like the purple hulls?

I would like to try some Federals again to dove hunt with, guess I can have some RGL's as spares.

*Last edited by skeettx on Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:55 pm; edited 2 times in total*

OK, here goes ...

The 16 gauge Win Model 12 is based on the 20 gauge receiver.

So when they eject you have to take the diagonal length of the hull.
The 16 gauge hull being wider than the 20 gauge hull means more
length. And sometimes when the extractor is generous, and the hull
port is minimal the 16 gauge long hulls will hang up.

The Remington hull is the shortest 2 3/4 hull normally available and usually
does not hang up.

Mike

PS, well done on you Sig Line update Smile

Joined: 12 Nov 2018 Posts: 40 Location: Alcoa, TN

Joined: 12 Nov 2018 Posts: 40 Location: Alcoa, TN

Test for signature.....

You can capture the thumbnail and make it smaller.

Send me a pm with the link, as I deleted it with my update

Mike

SkeeTX -- The small-frame Model 12 was designed and prototyped simultaneously for both the 16 and the 20. It was also made for short shells in both gauges -- 2 9/16 in the 16 and 2 1/2 in the 20 -- the standard length 16 and 20 gauge shells of the day. When Winchester finally went for 2 3/4 inch as the "standard length" (1927?) they had to deal with the marginal capability to expand to accommodate the extra 3/16 or 1/4 inch more. They did it, but just barely, and they made their shells ever so slightly shorter, too, which carried forward until they started outsourcing the manufacture of their cheaper loads. The current AA hulls are still made by Olin in East Alton IL (the old Western Cartridge Co location), I believe. They are still the same length as they always were, at least in 20 and 12, though definitely not in 28 and .410. The 20 is probably 1/16 to 1/8 inch shy of a full 2 3/4 inch, same as all the Winchester and Western branded 20's have been for 90 years. Further, paper hulls would flex pretty easily to flip out of the ejection port even if there was some interference, assuming one had a good ejector in the Model 12. Then along came modern times and the metric system and 70mm Eurohulls -- a full 2 3/4 plus a few RCH more (70mm = 2.756") made in nice stiff plastic. Hulls stretched a few thou by multiple reloadings make things worse.

If you are having trouble with 70mm hulls in these guns, ever so carefully use a Dremel tool to ease the sharp transition between the breech end of the chamber and the ejection port near the right side extractor groove. It doesn't take much, and if done right, you cannot see it from outside the gun. It need not alter the profile of the front edge of the ejection port. I found I had to do this when I converted one of my 2 9/16 inch Model 12's to 2 3/4 inch. I faithfully and exactly copyied the location of the front edge of the ejection port of my 1956 factory original 2 3/4 inch Model 12 16. The modified gun had difficulty ejecting 70mm hulls. I took a closer look at my 1956 gun which did eject those hulls, and lo and behold, the same sort of internal feature as my modification produced was there, and had been done, presumably, at/by the factory at time of manufacture.

If your gun has this feature already, or you do not want to make any modification, the only thing you can do is make sure your shells are of length appropriate to the function of the gun. I doubt you could ever go wrong with AA's or Remington's in the 20, and the sure deal in the 16 is "da black ones" from Remington, or 65mm or trimmed 70mm's from any Eurohull manufacturer. I have no trouble in my 1956 gun with any 70mm hull. I no longer have any trouble with full 70mm hulls in my converted 2 9/16 incher either.

Shuck it sharply!
Tony

PS: The 28 gauge Model 12's came out in 1934, I think. They had 2 7/8 inch chambers and were so marked. This was the standard length for 28 gauge shells at the time. I should look at one of them and see how they accommodated that much length with the same action - same stroke. Later the 28 was "standardized" also to 2 3/4". The odd thing, to me at least from this distance, is that the 12 gauge Model 12 was always a 2 3/4 inch gun (except for the 3" Duck Gun). At the time of it's introduction a lot of 12 gauge shells were still offered in a standard 2 5/8 inch length. And interestingly, any 2 3/4 inch Model 12 could be returned to the factory for conversion to 3", without even a modification to the ejection port, I believe -- just a simple chamber lengthening job.

Joined: 12 Nov 2018 Posts: 40 Location: Alcoa, TN

MaximumSmoke,

That is all very interesting. Thank you for your comments.

I have about 7 boxes of the RGL's and ordered 3 boxes of the 2.5" RST shells as well.

If the RST shells are premium like I expect, I will most likely just order them in the future as they are not that expensive for the amount of shooting I do.

I am going to do some math and see what the measurements of the each respective cylinder would be on the extraction, just for curiosity.

Joined: 12 Nov 2018 Posts: 40 Location: Alcoa, TN

So with a little solid work modeling with some assumptions.....

The 2 & 3/4" 16 ga shell unfolded length across the cylinder measures 2.83 inches

A 2 & 3/4" 12 ga shell unfolded length across the cylinder measures 2.84 inches

And finally the 2 & 3/4" 20 ga shell unfolded length across the cylinder measures 2.82 inches

I believe my math and mindset is correct?

So the 1 hundredth of an inch can theoretically make a difference in the ejection of 20 vs 16 ga in the Model 12?

Anyone have a 20 ga that ever had ejection issues?

Only my 1912 20 gauge that was made for the short shell.
Smile

Joined: 21 Mar 2019 Posts: 45

A little late to this party but Cheddite hulls would hang up in my model 12(1955)
about every 5-6 firings. Very annoying. I tried some RGL's and happy days. They all eject and quickly found a load for them that is as good as the Cheddite hull maybe better. I shoot the Cheddites in my Citori only now. Been wanting a different hull anyway as a way of color coding my loads. Don't like mixing my 5's with 7 1/2's.
Oh and by the way, thanks Tony for the very informative work on all the shell measurements in another post.
John