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*Last edited by revdocdrew on Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:35 am; edited 1 time in total*

"I don't go for that flinching bulls&*( if thats is a problem then work you way out of it."

Sorry-just couldn't let this one lie Rolling Eyes

"Flinch", "yips" in golfers, and a host of other movement disorders are now classified as a 'Task Specific Dystonia'

http://www.wemove.org/dys/dys_flimb.html
http://www.doctorbob.com/06_9_4news20.html
http://www.imakenews.com/wemovenews/e_article000394359.cfm?x=b11,0,w

The problem has ended the careers of some professional golfers and musicians. Aynsley Smith PhD, Director of Sports Psychology and Sports Medicine Research at the Mayo Clinic, Rochester, has researched the problem extensively http://www.radiology.medscape.com/viewarticle/411176

Michael Keyes, M.D. discussed the 'Yips' on p. 28 of the Sept. 05' Shotguns Sports Magazine

I've previously shared that I've been forced to stop shooting trap. No one is interested in my medical problems but the explaination is illustrative and complex related to:
1. Otosclerosis-a familial problem causing tinnitus, loss of hearing, and dysequilibrium (dizzyness)
2. Several previous sports and MVA related head injuries causing dysequilibrium (and likely explains some squishy brain behaviour Rolling Eyes

)
3. A familial problem with involuntary myoclonic jerking/fine resting tremor (Benign Essential Tremor) that may be associated with head titubation (involuntary head shaking)
4. Bad osteoarthritis in my neck and back
5. Way too much trap and sporting clays with 1 1/8 loads Rolling Eyes

Gentlemen: I frequently 'flinch' trying to click the mouse on the computer! but have never flinched shooting birds. And trust me, I've tried every 'cure' short of a release trigger (now looking for a 'release mouse' Rolling Eyes

)

My point is that a 'flinch' is as real as Parkinsonism (and sorta the opposite problem) and the cause and cure thereof can be terribly complex. Give guys a break when discussing it, because it's unbelievably frustrating to have no control over something as simple as pulling a trigger or swinging a putter Exclamation

Sorry Doc - I may be missing the point - you have a flinch (or whatever) problem that you can't shake?

Is it a muscular thing?

My Dad has shakes (non parkinsons but he doesn't want to get it solved...)

I can understand the rant/vent if so.

Jeebus man, good luck

Member Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Posts: 398 Location: S Fl

Well said Drew.

You're right, it never appears when "throwin' down" on a bird, or whitetail, or cape buffalo for that matter.

Have you tried a complete re-learning experience. That is, an attempt to retrain your muscle memory. In the case of rifle shooters, it involves frequent off hand practice with a .22, gradually working up in recoil level.

For a shotgun shooter, perhaps the method descibed by Bob Brister in The Art & the Science might not work. He took an airgun, removed the sights, and taught a complete neophyte to shoot aerial targets in the backyard. Of course, this student had no bad habits to unlearn, but I have to wonder if this approach might not prove beneficial for someone with your affliction(s).

The rifle method helped me, after I developed a galloping case of magnumitis. Smile

Just a thought.
Pete

I learned to drive on a "complete neophyte" in driving school, didn't make too many mistakes...

*Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:15 pm; edited 1 time in total*

Drew, I too have an on again/off again flinch. Mine seems to be from too much trap shooting with an ill fitting gun. I went to a release trigger and a perfectly fitted trap stock on my Perazzi guns. It really helps. I'm back in A to AA averages now.

I believe the root of my flinch problem lies in the anticipation of the sock in the jaw. Some of my earlier guns were not all that comfortable to shoot. I had a Winchester Diamond Grade unbarrel combo. The production stock had a comb like a razor. I finally sold it after getting my TMX with a nicely rounded and full cheek piece. What a difference. But the damage was done.

Funny thing, I shoot a release/pull doubles gun and never flinch on the second shot. I don't have time to anticipate the shock of the gun going off. I'm too busy concentrating on finding and crushing the second bird. It seems once barrel one goes off, the threat of flinching is over and done with. since I use a release for the first target, it never happens. I simply stay in the gun and find clay #2 with my eyes. No anticipation, no flinch.

Seems simple enough. I've finally learned or relearned to quiet my mind before calling for the target. Some folks call this the "quiet eye." Of course, most of my detractors claim I'm also used to an empty mind anyway. I say its a vicious rumor started by folks who are jealous of the fact that I can communicate with Martians when in this state. Wink

Anyway, pausing for an extra second or two to loosely focus my eyes on a point in the background where I will see any target presentation from the station and relaxing my conscious mind into the void really helps. The call for the target just happens when all is right. It is not planned. My mind picks up the bird faster and my consiousness is locked on target. Everything else in the shot sequence is automatic. No flinch.

I've also slowed the whole shot sequence down to a relaxed pace. I don't let a fast squad or a fast shooter or two on the squad influence me. I ignore it all and do what works for me. Trap is not a team sport. I've shot with enough of the very best shooters to know 90% of the top shots take their sweet time and never rush through a line of targets. So I've learned to take enough time to let my set up approach work for me.

If I rush, the flinch will show up as a dipped barrel after the shot, even with a release trigger. So I know that relaxing into the shot is part of the cure for my particular brand of flinch. We rush because we anticipate and vice versa. So I don''t do either anymore. I tell any pissed off hurryworts I've only got two speeds and if they don't like the first, they sure as hell won't like the second. Very Happy

These guys usually oblige me by not ever signing up on a squad with me again. So its a self solving problem. Don't rush. Don't be rushed. Works for me.

The same thing with high gun skeet which I rarely a shoot anymore anyway. On doubles, I might flinch every so often on the first doubles bird, but never on the second. I hardly ever flinch from low gun shooting. I'm probably too busy getting the gun to my face to anticipate the blow. If I lose myself in to process, the the flinch does not happen. I'm too focused on finding and killing the target. Same with hunting. Once the eyes are placed about four or five feet over where I expect the bird to appear, It's all a done deal. No flinch. If I don't havce time to set up and am lucky enough to be facing close enough to shift my feet and make the shot, well there again, no anticipation--no flinch.

However, I refuse to shoot anything heavier than a 7/8 ounce 1120 FPS load for skeet from my 12 ga guns and just love the little gauges, especially the .410.. After nearly a decade of low gun skeet, 5 stand, and SC shooting, my flinch problem rarely raises its head. If it does, I just dismiss it as a rare part of my life like breaking wind occasionally and letting the matter drop. I love to shoot. I won't let a little ole rare flinch screw it up. If I don't fixate on it, and relax, it goes away.

I'd like to see you form a game plan to lick it, or at least deal with it and keep trying. Light loads, alternative shooting methods, and relearning to relax into the shot sequence without being rushed have helped me. Of course, you are not part crazy Irish like me most likely. We Irish don't know how to quit-- we don't have the sense God gave geese about the matter. So I'm stuck with me and that's all there is to that. If you are part Irish, then what the hell's the matter lad. Get on with it. Laughing

Good luck. If there is anything I can do to help, let me know. I'm always available for a friend.

Pete and 16gg: The greatest problem for me became the dysequilibium with shooting trap with the gun pre-mounted and head fixed on the stock, even with 7/8 oz loads and multiple gun and stock changes and every possible 'recoil reduction apparati' including for awhile using a 28g Briley Companion tube in my SBT Rolling Eyes

Half way through the second round, I would be so dizzy, I could hardly walk between stations without looking...uh...substance impaired. I'm extremely thankful that I can still shoot low gun skeet and SC with light loads. Short of less scrambled brains it's pretty hopeless!
I would have gone to a release trigger if the only problem was the flinch, and BTW: the long putter used by lots of senior golfers has cured some fella's of their 'yips.'

AND my father's mother is of Clan Hunter via N. Ireland so I'm part crazy (and bull-headed) Scots-Irish Very Happy

Member Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Posts: 398 Location: S Fl

Are you sure someone isn't sneaking a pinch of Tulamore Dew into your water bottle? I understand. Its a damned shame and a rotten thing to happen to a true son of the true sod. I knew there was kinderd spirit there in you lad.

Well, at least you've still got the legs to shoot some. Lets see what tomorrow brings. Maybe it will get better. Besides, your dog obviously loves you darlin' boyo. That alone makes it tolerable. Keep up your spirits. I'm with you every step. Clan Celtachar of the oak.

Member Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 3438 Location: Illinois

Any shooter will flinch--I will admit to even doing it with the mighty .410----Kinda makes you proud when that happens Embarassed

I've seen folks with flinches so bad, that if the gun fails to fire, they literally fall forward off the station. I used to belong to a local trap club with one of the stubbornest, hardest headed men I've ever met. This guy swore up and down he never flinched--ever. We all knew different. The guy really needed help, but NOOO!!! He did not flinch.

One Sunday morning, we were shooting a line. He had a dud on a hard left from station one and spun himself off the pad and into the ground in front of him. his barrel stuck into the grass cored a sample out of the sod. Some smart ass behind us said, " Yup ole ---- never flinches--ever." We all fell out and laughed ourselves sick.

A flinch can be debilitating. Some folks can overcome it. Some can't. But a shooter needs to recognise and acknowledge the symtoms first. Some folks are just into denial. Well, that is another problem.

Member Joined: 01 Feb 2006 Posts: 450 Location: Indiana

I think my flenching comes from the border rever days but thanks to Red Haven and Hermitage some of the blood has slowed down.

Joined: 05 Feb 2005 Posts: 1

Another word for flinching is "Indecision".

Guest

Revdocdrew-My heart is with you, I can only imagine the frustration trying to deal with the problem. I've been fortunate to this point in being able to overcome magnumitis, now I only jerk half the time.

jhmbjm-you my good fellow are an inconsiderate ass, may the storms that cause these things come to dwell in your pea brained head, there should be plenty of room!

Once Again Drew-Hang in there Man, you can still whack the birds.
Chet