16ga.com Forum Index
Author Message
<  16ga. General Discussion  ~  Browning 525 - Firing Pin
nj gsp
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:15 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 437
Location: WI

I measured a new 20 gauge under pin and compared it to the under barrel pin I just replaced. All dimensions were the same, except the overall length. The original 16 gauge pin was 1.168" and the 20 gauge was 1.182". My measuring tools are not capable of measuring accurately to a sloped shoulder, so I'm not going to guess whether it's the contact tip of the firing pin or the spring shaft - or both - makes the pin 0.014" shorter in the 16 gauge.

However, the tip to the sharp shoulder was 0.682" on the 16 gauge pin and 0.690 on the 20 gauge pin.

Either way, I think the 0.014" shorter length overall and 0.008" shorter tip length was definitely not helping the original firing pin to get a solid strike on the primer.

The new 20 gauge over pin measured 1.161" OAL. And no, I did not take my gun apart to measure the original 16 gauge pin.

Over and under pins:



Here is a photo of the two under firing pins, original on top:

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
nj gsp
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:21 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 437
Location: WI

Another update: I shot a round of trap with the 525 last night, and although I broke the first 18 in a row it sort of fell apart starting on station 4 and I ended up finishing with a 21. Poor shooting aside, the important part is all 25 rounds went bang.

This was with Federal loads in #8. I’ll try it again in winter league with the worst offenders - RGL’s, I have a few cases of those in 7-1/2.


Last edited by nj gsp on Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
tdnathens
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:30 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Kentucky

(nj psp) I measured a new lower 16 gauge and a new lower 20 gauge pin. The 20 measured 1.1850. the 16 measured 1.1715. The .0135 difference in length is all on the large diameter rear part of my pins. The small end to the sharp shoulder is the same on both pins. Neither of these pins would give enough firing pin protrusion to stop ftf on my favorite 16 gauge Citori. I have to move the small end sloped shoulder back 5 to 8 thousands to have 100% ignition. I did this 20 years ago and have not had a ftf in my lower barrel since. 99% of the time a good cleaning with a new firing pin and mainspring cures ftf. I do change mainsprings every two years. I find they do weaken even though I use snap caps. With your cleaning and new firing pin your gun will probably never miss fire again.
Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
tnbillyearl
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:43 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 May 2019
Posts: 7
Location: southeast TN

Sorry to be so late to this thread. And thanks to NJ_GSP for the PM and information.

I have had the same problem with my 525 16ga and Federal Game Load shells (purple hull, high brass, 8 shot). I shot skeet and went on a couple of dove hunts this past month when it first happened. From reading here, elsewhere, and looking at my primers, here is my novice opinion:

1. The lower barrel's primer strike comes in at a slight angle.
2. The Federal primers are just hard. Seating depth of the primer was consistent.

My Win209 reloads show a deeper strike, as do the Win Super X shells I shot. It's just the Federal primers in the lower barrel. I have maybe a 1 in 10 FTF.

The pic below is trying to show the depth of a Win209 strike in my lower barrel vs 3 Federal primers.

[URL=https://www.jpgbox.com/page/61370_600x400/] [/URL]
[/b]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nj gsp
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:11 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 437
Location: WI

I got caught in the rain while grouse hunting in Maine on Friday, and my favorite Citori Superlight Feather 16 gauge got thoroughly soaked. I pulled it apart tonight to give it a good cleaning and pulled out the firing pins.

First of all, I have to say there wasn't a drop of moisture inside the action, and with everything being aluminum and stainless or plated I doubt corrosion would be much of an issue.

I have fired thousands of rounds through this gun, and have never had a FTF. It's my #1 hunting gun, and pretty much all I carry these days.

The under barrel pin measured 1.170 OAL, and 0.692 to the shoulder. So the tip on this one is 0.010 longer than the one on the 525.

Perhaps this whole issue of under barrel FTF's on 525s is just a case of out of spec firing pins during the manufacturing run?



Last edited by nj gsp on Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
nj gsp
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:37 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 437
Location: WI

Here's an up-close view of the firing pin retention pin. Note the one end that is knurled goes in last - start from the other end!

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Hunter&Hound
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:15 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 179
Location: United States of America (Wisconsin)

So, I had a bunch of FTF's this fall on the lower barrel using RIO shells. The gun is striking the primer, but it looks like a bad/weak hit. When I compare the RIO shells that FTF and Winchester shells, it appears that the RIO primer sits slightly deeper.

I had one RIO that I tried 3 times in the lower barrel. It would strike and eject each time, but would not fire. It fired in the top barrel.

The gun is apart right now and I'm hoping to limp through the season. It actually looks quite clean, although I have thousands of rounds through it.

Looking for advice...I don't want to be without this gun right now as I'm doing well with it despite the FTF's...rarely using the bottom barrel.

Should I try other shells such as Winchester?

Should I order springs and pins from P&G? Looks like it's the same kit for various gauges. Or, should I order 20 gauge pins only?

I'm sure if I can get the parts, my gunsmith can get me back in action pretty quick. But, I'm hunting a lot right now.

What's my best short-term solution? Long-term solution?

Thanks fellas!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hunter&Hound
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:46 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 179
Location: United States of America (Wisconsin)

I'm starting to think this is more of a problem w/ the RIO shells.

I just took 2 of the FTF's out onto the deck to test them in the lower barrel. They just won't fire...after 3-4 tries each. I grabbed 2 random shells from the box and fired just fine with nice, deep primer hits.

The 2 that won't fire look about half as deep.

Is this a problem w/ hard primers in the RIO shells? Or, are some of these primers set a bit deep?

I'd like to post pics, but I'm not sure how. Anyone help? I'd love for you guys to see this.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
top_cat
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:46 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 160
Location: central oregon

I experienced FTFs in the bottom of my Beretta 682 12 ga. The fault was mine, as these shells were reloads. I started running my finger over the base of the shells while they were in my shooting vest pocket. I found I could actually discern the slightly deeper primers from the OK ones. I would sort those shells into a separate pocket, and reserve them for the top barrel. I changed the primer seater on my reloader to just barely seat the primers,. The problem went away. I'm sure you can sort the new shells the same way by just dumping them into your vest or shell bag and running your finger over the base while the others in your squad are shooting.

Hope this helps.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
top_cat
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:46 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 160
Location: central oregon

I experienced FTFs in the bottom of my Beretta 682 12 ga. The fault was mine, as these shells were reloads. I started running my finger over the base of the shells while they were in my shooting vest pocket. I found I could actually discern the slightly deeper primers from the OK ones. I would sort those shells into a separate pocket, and reserve them for the top barrel. I changed the primer seater on my reloader to just barely seat the primers,. The problem went away. I'm sure you can sort the new shells the same way by just dumping them into your vest or shell bag and running your finger over the base while the others in your squad are shooting.

Hope this helps.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
top_cat
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:48 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 160
Location: central oregon

Sorry about the double post.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tdnathens
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:36 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Kentucky

(Hunter&Hound) I just got on line and saw your post, so this may be too late. You don't specify so I take it your problem is with a 16ga Citori. Short term repair: Remove main springs, main spring guides, hammers and firing pins. If your lower firing pin is not cratered or broke all you can do is clean and polish it. If you have shot it thousands of times there will be crud that has been pounded into a hard buildup on the inside front of the firing pin chamber. This can be removed with a spray nozzle on gun cleaner, brake or carb cleaner. An air compressor with a small nozzle helps. This buildup can be really hard. I have had to use small wire brushes and even drill bits turned by hand. It usually takes a lot of work to remove it. After everything is cleaned insert the firing pin, hold it all the way forward with the shoulder bottoming on the receiver. You should have 0.055 to 0.070 of protrusion. With the hammers installed and resting on the firing pins the optimum protrusion is .047 Check the mainspring guides for wear. Sometimes they will have a grove cut into them that slows the spring release down. Long term you may need to change firing pins. J&P uses the same lower firing pin in all the small gauges. Correct Browning firing pin and spring part numbers are listed earlier in this post. You can order direct from Browning on the phone with the correct part numbers. You should replace mainsprings as soon as possible. I find aftermarket springs such as J&P too heavy. They use the same replacement spring for all gauges. It's fine for large 12ga frame Citori, but too much for the smaller frame guns such as the 16ga. I have had the best service from the standard 12ga Browning factory spring. It's larger than the 16ga Browning factory spring, but just a little. Not like the much heavier aftermarket springs. It's your choice, Browning 16,12, or aftermarket. I change my mainsprings every two years, clean the firing pins every year. J&P recommends changing their springs every year if you shoot a lot. If a shell will fire in the upper barrel but not in the lower it's a problem with the gun not the primers. Hope this helps.
Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
nj gsp
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:39 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 437
Location: WI

Update:

While grouse hunting this fall, I found about a dozen RGL's in 7-1/2, and given the ammo shortage decided to use them up.

I had three FTF's in the under barrel - same loads went bang in the over barrel. This was in my Superlight Feather.

When I was done missing shot opportunities for the day, on the way back to the truck I stopped at one of the midden heaps on my land and shot at few old soup cans.

Out of the 10 RGL's I had left, 4 did not go bang, with light strikes on the under barrel. All went bang in the over barrel.

So when I got home, I ordered a set of 16 gauge firing pins, even though I had extra 20 gauge pins.

When I compared the under barrel pin in the Citori to the new 20 gauge pin, they measured the same. The firing pin pocket was pretty clean. I had a few more great grouse hunts and didn't have a single FTF using SpredR and Federal game loads.

It appears the fault in this instance was entirely due to deep set primers. Although I have not measured the hulls yet.

When the new 16 gauge firing pins arrived, I measured them and although they have a different part number, they were almost exactly the same dimensionally as the 20 gauge firing pins, certainly within what I would consider manufacturing tolerances.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
curteric
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:06 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 25 Oct 2012
Posts: 70
Location: Full time RVing. Location can be anywhere warm.

top_cat wrote:
I experienced FTFs in the bottom of my Beretta 682 12 ga. The fault was mine, as these shells were reloads. I started running my finger over the base of the shells while they were in my shooting vest pocket. I found I could actually discern the slightly deeper primers from the OK ones. I would sort those shells into a separate pocket, and reserve them for the top barrel. I changed the primer seater on my reloader to just barely seat the primers,. The problem went away. I'm sure you can sort the new shells the same way by just dumping them into your vest or shell bag and running your finger over the base while the others in your squad are shooting.

Hope this helps.


I also posted earlier in this thread that I have noticed this also. I have a 425 Sporting, 12 ga, a White Lightning, 16ga and Hunter, 16ga. I have never had a ftf on the bottom with any factory loads. I use the 425 for Sporting Clays. Failure to fire is always related to deep primers with reloaded ammunition.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bigblue
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:22 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Sep 2020
Posts: 181
Location: ont canada

top_cat wrote:
Sorry about the double post.
I am sure most are aware of this . If you delete the post the extra post will remain . Ignore the post failed message . Hope this helps with the electronic stuttering.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
All times are GMT - 7 Hours

View next topic
View previous topic
Page 2 of 3
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
16ga.com Forum Index  ~  16ga. General Discussion

Post new topic   Reply to topic


 
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB and NoseBleed v1.09