16ga.com Forum Index
Author Message
<  16ga. General Discussion  ~  Trap vs field
Cold Iron
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:03 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Mar 2016
Posts: 746
Location: Mn.

bobski wrote:
.......the Todd Bender sustained lead method .................

todd bender did not invent sustained leads and I refuse it wherever is see it mentioned.
take no offense personally.

Sounds like you have an issue with Todd LOL.

I said- For skeet I use the Todd Bender sustained lead method

Never said he invented sustained lead however he did develop a complete methodology for shooting skeet including hold points, stance, vision, etc. I follow it pretty down the line anyone seeing me shoot would know that I am using the Todd Bender method. Or methodology if that makes you feel better.

Most Sporting Clay instructors today teach sustained lead and there are many methods. One of the most popular is Vicki and Gil Ash OSP- Optimum Shotgun Performance. I do not subscribe to all of it and anyone watching me shoot SC would never accuse me of using the OSP method. But I still will be using sustained lead. I do not believe in trapping a rising bird for one thing.

For sporting clays IMO it is important to be able to use all the tools in the toolbox at least on a decent course. That would include sustained lead in addition to swing through, AKA known as instinctive shooting. But swing through or instinctive usually fails hard on 50+ yard angled crossers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cold Iron
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:58 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Mar 2016
Posts: 746
Location: Mn.

John Singer wrote:
MSM2019 wrote:
Plenty of skeet shooters use release triggers and I know of a few Sporting Clays shooters that use them.


I stand corrected here.

I did not realize that release triggers were used in skeet and sporting clays.


You're not too far off the mark John, I have shot all over the country. Trap, skeet and SC. It is rare for skeet or SC shooters to use a release. Most that I know are also Trap shooters.

First time seen a SC shooter with a R sticker anywhere was at the Pine Island course ~15 years ago (now closed) with a Benelli Super Sport and said he shot 20k rounds a year. He had Phillip Crenwelge do the conversion for him. Phil is one of the best release trigger men anywhere. At the time he and Patrick Gottberg were the P&P gunsmithing team. Pat is still in Wells Mn. and Phil moved to Texas.

Pat and Jim Bruce were on the Mn. ATA team, top 5 shooters in the State. Jim helped coach my youngest son to the ATA State Class runner up at the age of 15. Although Pat helped as much when my son asked him how he became such a good shooter. Pat said he sat his shotgun in a corner of the house that he walked by often and every time he walked by he would pick up the gun and close his eyes and mount it. And he would do it 20 times, if he didn't have it mounted perfectly when he opened his eyes he would start over. So my son started doing that same thing, at 13.

Jim talked Pat and one other State shooter to shoot a SC league at Pine Island one year, all 3 were AAA27AAA. The other 2 shooters on the team were AA27AA and it took a lot of convincing for him to talk them into it. They all shot release triggers and trap guns. Except for Jim who had shot sporting the other 4 shot in the 50's-60's first time out. At the end of the first month they were all 5 in the mid 90's every time out. Vision, and the ability to truly see the target.... Wasn't much of a league worth shooting that year.

At Winona and Austin you will on occasion see someone shoot skeet with a release trigger. They are usually Trap shooters "crossing over" and getting pink tutu comments when they go back to the trap line.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
putz463
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:54 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 06 Oct 2007
Posts: 2343
Location: West MI

A lot of sound advice. I'll only add/clarify my previous input regarding the use of clay games as useful practice for field... along with low gun I more often than not have the puller pull the birds in any combination they choose including on skt/trap combo fields whenever they want after I close the gun. We informally call it "Dealers Choice" or "Close" I do this to get over that rushed moment of the (over) hurried uncoordinated toss of the gun during a live bird or bunny flush. It really keeps you on your toes and for me best I can mimic controlling the excitement/anticipation (adrenaline) of a live flush and really highlights the importance of getting your eyes on the bird then a smooth fluid gun mount/movement and that there really is more time than perceived to get the gun up and on a target....usually. + its just damn good frustrating fun when pulling for friends, kinda like hunting.

_________________
Sorry, I'm a Duck Hunter so shouldn't be held strictly responsible for my actions between Oct 1st and ice up.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
double vision
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:00 am  Reply with quote
Guest





Clay games can be fun, but imho they can lead to problems in the field which include a reliance on precision and specific sight pictures. I found my own field shooting to be slipping, whiffing routine shots, not hitting tough shots I know I can make, too much reliance on specific sight pictures. Magic in the field runs a circuit from your eyes to your hands bypassing the brain. I had to relearn that this season, and I found my antidote in a smooth-swinging SxS with a swamped rib which doles out a harsh penalty for attempting to engage the brain, and I had one of my best bird shooting runs in a long time.
Back to top
MSM2019
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:30 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

Dave,

You are absolutely correct.

Sporting Clays and for that matter all of the clay target games require shooting the target before you even call for the target, if you really want to be successful. The shooter always knows where the target is coming from. Even ATA trap is predictable enough to start with a good hold point on each station. In other words there is a lot of setup in the clay target games.

Shooting wild birds is completely instinctive because there is no way of knowing how or where the bird is going to flush from. Could be one bird 5' feet in front of the dog's nose or 30 birds 20 yards in front of the dog that flush before you get to your dog and the shots might end up being crossers depending on the wind.

I think that any shooting is good for you because it reinforces good mounts and smooth moves to the target. BUT clay targets and hunting birds are two different exercises with a shotgun.

_________________
Mark...You are entitled to your own opinion. You aren't entitled to your own facts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
double vision
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:44 am  Reply with quote
Guest





MSM2019 wrote:
I think that any shooting is good for you because it reinforces good mounts and smooth moves to the target. BUT clay targets and hunting birds are two different exercises with a shotgun.


Yep!

I'll add that the vast majority of the clays shooters will have good and safe gun handling habits ingrained from time at the range; a very good thing.

I might have to rethink my old standard of just using bird guns on clays. Perhaps it's better to have a radically different gun for each sport rather than trying to merge the two. Something to think about, Brewster.
Back to top
MSM2019
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:07 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

I have tried to use my hunting shotgun(s) for registered sporting clays. It is fun but typically I am well off my normal score. It is tough to get a hunting shotgun which is typically lighter and more between the hands, handle as smoothly as a shotgun used solely for clay target games.

The closest I can get with the hunting shotguns in my safe is using my Remington 1100 - 16 gauge. For skeet there is almost no difference. For sporting clays about 5 or 6 targets down. But that shotgun is pretty well modified and 7 lb.s 10 oz., which most folks would not want to carry in the field.

_________________
Mark...You are entitled to your own opinion. You aren't entitled to your own facts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Singer
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:37 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 03 Sep 2014
Posts: 398
Location: Rochester, MN

Reading many of these responses, the question that I have is: Which is more important in shooting clay target games, getting a good score, or developing your shooting so you can be more effective when hunting?

In the US, we seen changes to allow shooters to get better scores (allowing high gun mounts in skeet and sporting clays, the elimination of the random delay in sporting clays, etc). These changes directly contradict the original purpose of those games.

I know my own answer to the above question and I find it humorous when people gripe about late pulls at a sporting clays course that uses the random delay system, or has a challenging long range target "because it impacts scores".

_________________
John Singer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
16'er
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:41 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 1393
Location: Tappahannock, Virginia

has anyone here shot a Dove flurry type set up?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
skeettx
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:42 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Posts: 9455
Location: Amarillo, Texas

I do not enjoy the flurry games,

I usually do quite well in them but I feel that the gun gets too hot.

I feel that a great game for warming up to hunting is CRAZY Skeet.
Low gun, and zero to 3 second delay , and a variation is NOT to say "pull"
The birds come out after the shooter is loaded and ready, 0-3 second delay.

Mike

_________________
,
USAF RET 1971-95
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
bobski
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:46 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 18 Feb 2018
Posts: 621
Location: va, ct, mo

no, but wherever I look and read, his admirers try to give him the full credit for a common method of swinging a shotgun. he may have perfected it in skeet, but he didn't invent it.

any intelligent person knows the term 'a sustained lead' can be said w/o the name involved.

how would the world like it if I started mentioning my name every time the term a 'swing thru lead' was used? see the point?

I/e: I prefer to use the bob k swing thru method. Rolling Eyes

or, does anyone here use the bob k. picture frame shot? lol.

that's all.

so, back to the OP, skeet guns are for skeet. trap guns are for trap. FIELD GUNS are for field. its the joy of the American dream. way too many people get all tied up with issues when they try to make one gun do the famous 'bob k. do all task. Laughing

im all for kiss.........bob k. says: 50/50 for field, 60-40 for skeet, 70-30 for trap. forget the bob k. adjustomatic stocks and ribs. just go get a gun for each sport. Wink


Last edited by bobski on Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:54 am; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Retired Naval Aviation
Former Member Navy Shooting Team
NRA Shotgun, Pistol, Home Defense Card
Range Owner: Vanzant Clay Pigeon Farm, Mo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
MSM2019
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:51 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

John Singer,

Hunting and sporting clays for me are two different situations and not to be confused or compared.

I like the direction that sporting clays has gone. Regardless of the mount the targets are getting more challenging then ever. I would not want sporting to go back to when it was more skeet in the woods. Game bird trajectories for clay targets are pretty straight forward and fairly easy to master in a sporting clays event. Today's targets stretch your abilities and MAKE you see the subtle flight trajectories that make them easy to miss. Delayed target release is no big deal, you don't move until you see the target. Many sporting machines have a bit of a delay to them and some machines are well away from the break zone and the target is a long time getting there. I really don't think a delay changes much.

I think some of the mounting deal in sporting comes because the trapper would have to intervene and make a call on whether the mount was low gun or mounted that adds to confusion and getting the umpire involved. If you want a true low gun mount there is always FITASC which usually is even more challenging with less options for the shooter. Either way go to a fairly big sporting clays event, the mount is the least of your concerns.

Hunting is more instinctive and for me is not about the shooting but more about working with a dog. Nothing like a dog on point and the anticipation of the flush and not knowing where it is coming from.

_________________
Mark...You are entitled to your own opinion. You aren't entitled to your own facts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Charles Hammack
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:46 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 1729
Location: Central Missouri

Hello Cold Iron :

I hadn't thought of Pat & Phil in a long time , I used to make release hooks and other components for them years ago , I wondered what happened to them since I quit making gun parts .

Yep really nice guys and good technicians.

Well we have solved the world's problems , now let's see if we can shoot more birds ?

My problem is I am having problems finding birds to shoot .

Regards Nick
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:13 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 1550
Location: Minnesota and Florida

I'm late to this party, but there is a lot of good advice here. Just one correction, though -- Trap was invented to mimic Live Pigeon Shooting, not hunting situations. Trap replaced the pigeon with inanimate targets, to eliminate the problems and cost of real birds (and practice thereon). Even its name (Trap) and the call "Pull" come from Live Pigeon -- the "puller" pulled the trap over with a rope to release the bird. Trap has almost nothing to do with shots experienced in the field, whether rough upland shooting, or pass shooting. It is not a game of much movement, mostly involving more subtle swings, which some shooters never catch on to, and replace with what are more or less "spot-shooting" techniques with just enough success to cement the technique. Shooters that succumb to these habits often seem happy with trap, but never score very highly in trap or any other wingshooting game.

Helice is a very challenging and interesting version of Live Pigeon, and just as costly. It's what Trap wanted to be, but couldn't with the technology of the times in which it was started. "Aiming" habits often found in new or casual trap shooters don't work well in Live Pigeon and Helice, but those sports are also limited representations of upland shots, and allow techniques mostly unavailable to the upland rough shooter -- pre-mount, heavy guns with high patterns, stances unlike those likely to be used routinely in the field, etc.

Trap is a good sport and at top level is as exacting and difficult as any clay shooting game. Starting kids out on trap, however, especially those who have been shooting a rifle or BB gun at fixed targets, is almost guaranteed to produce shotgun "aimers" unless the fundamentals are enforced. It is very hard to break the aiming habit if you let it go on just to have the new shooter break a few straight-aways or incomers for confidence. Breaking the haqbit or better yet avoiding it can be done more easily with the young, and especially with girls and women. At adolescent age (and beyond, too) females seem to listen better -- at least on the skeet field. Also, I'm quite sure their egos are not as tied up in the ownership of their current technique, as it is with boys and men. Most adolescent boys with only trap experience participating in our Minnesota Skeet Shooting Association Summer Camp cannot even be forced to change their technique -- until I have a girl on the squad! Getting beat by girls has an amazing effect on adolescent boys, as you can imagine. Trying to convert a "dedicated aimer" who is interested in breaking skeet targets usually starts with them thinking a long "riding" swing is the answer. These shooters then stop to pull the trigger when they've "had enough", or think they've got the job done -- very frustrating for them. We have ways to deal with that, and they work.

Skeet is the most relevant to field/upland shots, as that is how it's founders designed it. It's compact field layout provides the largest variety of shots approximating those encountered in upland shooting, so it is great for fundamental wingshooting instruction. Skeet, however, can only take one so far, even if you use your field gun and shoot from an un-pre-mounted position. Certainly top-level tournament-variety American Skeet and especially International Skeet (and Trap) are pretty useless to the upland trainee -- big heavy pre-mounted gun and reliance on known target paths (in skeet) and for some, timing (a no-no some fairly high-scoring skeet-shooters still use -- most of us are sustained-leaders). American Skeet is good for knowing your gun and grooving your mount, and matching your swing and line to a target, but the target moves differently to field birds, velocity-wise, as mentioned by several here. Real upland targets and real field situations present other challenges to stance and balance. There is no substitute for real field shooting experience. Some "field-like" variation was simulated in Sporting Clays when it first came out, but now Sporting Clays is just a rig-up of crazy and deceptive shots that are "interesting challenges", but quite often not much like real game shots, upland or waterfowl. Good Sporting Clays and FITASC shooters are quite amazing in their perceptions of target movement. I would bet the skills of these masters translate pretty well to any wingshooting challenge, but for most of us, SC is, like tournament skeet, done with a heavy gun from a pre-mounted or partially pre-mounted start.

All shooting is good. Exactly what for, is the question.

Cheers and Happy Holidays!
Tony
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Singer
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:44 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 03 Sep 2014
Posts: 398
Location: Rochester, MN

MaximumSmoke wrote:
I'm late to this party, but there is a lot of good advice here. Just one correction, though -- Trap was invented to mimic Live Pigeon Shooting, not hunting situations. Trap replaced the pigeon with inanimate targets, to eliminate the problems and cost of real birds (and practice thereon).


I am the one that made that statement that trap developed as practice for hunting. My statement was based on the very origin of trap.

Here is a reference:
https://www.britannica.com/sports/trapshooting

The relevant statement: "Trapshooting originated in England in the late 18th century when marksmen, to improve their hunting skills, shot at live pigeons released from cages or box traps. The practice was outlawed or died out in the late 19th century when various inanimate objects were substituted as targets, culminating with the invention of the modern disk. Trapshooting has since developed an appeal of its own apart from training for hunting and is chiefly pursued among marksmen who seldom or never hunt."

_________________
John Singer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
All times are GMT - 7 Hours

View next topic
View previous topic
Page 2 of 4
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
16ga.com Forum Index  ~  16ga. General Discussion

Post new topic   Reply to topic


 
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB and NoseBleed v1.09