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Dave in Maine
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:05 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Sep 2010
Posts: 1972
Location: Maine

I'd be inclined to send it back, as nice as it is, for two reasons.
1. The left muzzle looks way eccentric. There's a lot of wall on the outboard side and not very much at all next to the regulating block. A year or so ago we saw an LC Smith dissected on doublegun after blowing up near the breech. In that case, the thin spot of the eccentricity was where the barrel's demolition started. And the fact that the thin spot was against one of the blocks joining the barrels at the breech end (I forget offhand if it was dovetailed, but no matter for my point) did not help with extra strength when it finally came apart. RevDocDrew was deeply involved in the forensics there.

With a muzzle that eccentric I would worry the two barrels will not shoot to the point of aim.

If I read correctly that the barrels have been cut, that would explain the "square" character of the muzzles. I'd be inclined to believe they were either honed or the chokes messed with at some time in the past. Minor frosting in 120 y/o barrels is pretty unlikely, and less likely than they were honed out in the past. If they were honed, I'd be suspicious of the quality of the work because I cannot imagine a muzzle that eccentric being allowed to leave Meriden.

2. While .019 is not great, it is close to the bottom end of acceptable wall thicknesses. It is hard to get a good, true measurement along the ribs, period. Fact of life. But I'd be having pictures of that LC Smith running through my head.

As we all know, you almost always shoot better with a gun you're confident in and comfortable with. If you're worried about it blowing up or getting dented, you're likely to not shoot well.

I'd send it back.

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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:24 pm  Reply with quote
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Dave: the Smith blow-up summary starts about 1/2 way down here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZnptAPvQIlWG5n5UU2FmKcFpYtVmOSc4b7K7G9IBs4g/edit

It was felt to have been caused by a failure of the top rib extension braze + a high pressure reload + a possible inclusion in the tube wall.

re: eccentricity. These are freshly cut barrel segments ready to be machined for tensile testing. Some more eccentric than others



One will also observe the absence of "orange lace" ie. the mythical corrosion taking place within pattern welded barrel walls

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Drew Hause
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:46 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

With a heavy heart, I announce that I am sending it back. Too much risk. I thought I could live with low pressure 3/4 oz. loads but the thought of a stray shell loaded to standard specs getting mixed in with my LP's or any number of oddities has me pulling the plug on this one. If it were easier to find another barrel set I would keep it.

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:35 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

WyoChukar,

Good move on your part sir, invest in a different gun.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

A nice safe L.C. Smith would be just right.

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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:48 am  Reply with quote
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Dave: is that your gun with the 28g tubes? What was the problem with the barrels? Wall thickness? Concern regarding the Chain Damascus?

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:17 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

revdocdrew,

As far as I know the Damascus barrels were in perfect shape when the gun was stolen form my Great Grandfathers home. The man who eventually ended up with the gun had the 20 gauge gun sleeved by Briley so he could have a 28 gauge gun. Briely did a great job sleeving the gun, I do not know whether to hate the old man who had the Special Order #2 gun sleeved for 28 or congratulate him, it is one great Grouse & Woodcock gun for sure. I would have liked the 1898, 20 gauge my Great Grandfather Special ordered with the high grade Damascus barrels, on the standard L.C. frame, to have remained original. I still have a few of those stolen guns to recover, John Houchins actually found this #2 gun for me, by accident while working on his L.C. Smith Legned Lives book. He actually found the gun just after his book went to publication, he was going to amend his book because of this gun, however he never lived long enough get the job done.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man


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Dave in Maine
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:03 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Sep 2010
Posts: 1972
Location: Maine

revdocdrew wrote:
Dave: the Smith blow-up summary starts about 1/2 way down here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZnptAPvQIlWG5n5UU2FmKcFpYtVmOSc4b7K7G9IBs4g/edit

It was felt to have been caused by a failure of the top rib extension braze + a high pressure reload + a possible inclusion in the tube wall.


My point in bringing up that blown Smith was to point out that the thinnest part of the left muzzle on Wyo's now-sent-back gun was adjacent to the regulating block, similar to the how thin point where the failure originated in the Smith was against the brazed area of the top rib extension. In both instances, the abundance of metal (the Smith's rib extension and the Parker's regulating block) did/do not contribute to strengthening the thin barrel at that point.

You might recall from the discussion at doublegun I was one of the first on that thread to point out that thin spot where the failure started in the Smith.

revdocdrew wrote:
re: eccentricity. These are freshly cut barrel segments ready to be machined for tensile testing. Some more eccentric than others



True. As I recall it, the vast majority of tubes in doubleguns are and always have been eccentric to some degree. My point in highlighting it on Wyo's gun was, as I noted, to question whether a barrel whose exit is that eccentric would shoot to the point of aim. I have my doubts.

Similarly, my noting the "square"ness of the muzzle ends on Wyo's gun was to point out that such "square"ness is a sign either the barrels have not been messed with (either by changing chokes, honing or polishing) or they have been cut. I didn't elaborate further b/c it would have gone off topic, but "sharp" muzzles are a clear indicator someone has messed with the muzzles, either changing the choke or honing out rust.

revdocdrew wrote:
One will also observe the absence of "orange lace" ie. the mythical corrosion taking place within pattern welded barrel walls


Didn't mention orange lace. Your studies have pretty well convinced me of the mythic nature of interstitial corrosion in pattern-welded barrels and, further, that they really do tend to behave as unitary mild steel, at least as to pressure resistance, etc. The power of science over marketing hype and such.

I for one have greatly appreciated all you've done re applying science and engineering to Damascus barrels. That doesn't mean I'll run out and buy some, but I won't be deathly afraid of them either. Please keep up the good work.

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fin2feather
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:07 pm  Reply with quote
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Ok; here's a confession. Years ago my pop said to stay away from those "laminated barrels" and to this day the sigma stays with me. I've read all the data to the contrary, and I believe it, but... I guess I'm kinda in line with Havilah Babcock and his "Fallen Lady". Plus, to be 100% honest, I just prefer the look of blued steel; all that pattern doesn't do a thing for me Very Happy ! I know that makes me a Philistine to some folks, but there it is.

So, I mostly shoot A. H. Fox guns. That way I don't have to worry about it, nor be tempted Very Happy

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:00 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Gentlemen,

I have to admit my Grandfather traded away all our Damascus barreled L.C. Smith guns a long time ago. Now that the old #2, 20 gauge has been fully lined with 28 gauge modern sleeves by Briely, there is absolutely no danger in damaging her. I would still like to pick up a set of Nitro 20 gauge barrels to make the gun a two barrel set. Remember the pre 13 sub gauge guns were engineered for 2 1/2" shells, not the modern 2 3/4". I have never seen a sub gauge L.C. Smith double gun fail when the correct size shells are used in the guns. Especially a gun with Krupp barrels on it.
In fact the new RST & Poly 2 1/2" shells shoot so softly you hardly feel the recoil.
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:15 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

Here is a better picture of the muzzle. The steel filled epoxy to fill the solder void was the first red flag with this gun. The left tube also had a noticeable upturn toward the end.
[[URL=https://www.jpgbox.com/page/59493_564x768/] [/URL]][/img]

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:34 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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Location: Hudson,Wy

I just received verification, serial number included, that this gun was also sold to a PGCA member a few months ago. He also returned it for the same reasons.

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:32 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

WyoChukar,

Sounds like the gun either needs complete restoration or be turned into a wall hanger.


Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:31 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

I have asked that G&H also cover my shipping costs both ways since they never should have put this gun back up for sale after being made aware of safety issues. We'll see how they handle this.

Right now I have $130 tied up in the privilege of measuring the thing like their gunsmithing department (where it was stored when I called them to purchase it) should have already done. I doubt anyone there would pay $130 just to look at a gun and hand it back. Hopefully they will do what is right, both in terms of my refund(s) and making sure this gun is either rebarreled, sleeved, or designated a wall hanger/ parts gun.

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:11 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

WyoChukar,
Keep use informed as to what happens, they should make this right. If not purchasers need to know about it.


Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:01 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 2062
Location: canandaigua - western n.y. (formerly deerhunter)

It would be nice to know how far that thin area goes . If it's just near the muzzle , i wouldn't be afraid of shooting those little loads . If that way near the breach , youwser !! My Warner had a double bulge at the choke on the right barrel . By far the worse I;d ever seen . Figured WTH , would send some mags down there and see what happens when the end goes flying . 5 shots later , it was still there !! Chop saw took care of the problem area , and other than a heavy trigger , shoots just fine .

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