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Brewster11
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:32 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
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Location: Western WA

Don’t get me wrong, I think British guns are delightful. But this interesting recent article in Diggory Hadoke’s Journal perfectly illustrates the rabbit hole that one can quickly be drawn into: https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/latest-restoration. Of course it’s all part of the fun, just as it is for hobbyists and collectors of every persuasion, from Leica cameras to Gravely lawnmowers.
B.
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Chicago
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:20 pm  Reply with quote
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Brewster11 wrote:
Don’t get me wrong, I think British guns are delightful. But this interesting recent article in Diggory Hadoke’s Journal perfectly illustrates the rabbit hole that one can quickly be drawn into: https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/latest-restoration. Of course it’s all part of the fun, just as it is for hobbyists and collectors of every persuasion, from Leica cameras to Gravely lawnmowers.
B.


What rabbit hole do you see in that article? Every issue is one that would have been easily revealed by vetting the gun with a skilled gunsmith, or if you have the tools your own vetting. I recently passed on a 16 bore #1 Army & Navy for sale in England because the minimum wall thickness was below my standard. The gun shop in England shared that with me via e-mail. As someone else pointed out the fun is in the investigation.

About a year ago I came very close to purchasing a Holland & Holland Royal that looked like a gussied up Dominion. I knew very little about London Best guns and I spent a couple of weeks boning up on what made a Best Gun. I made a lowball offer that was declined because I was going to have to bend the stock quite a bit for the proper cast. If it snapped I needed to figure in a new stock (properly done) for a finished cost.

Given how many of us are sitting around in self isolation I will put together a post titled "Vetting an H&H Royal” with pictures. Hopefully it will provide some comfort to those feeling like they are staring down the rabbit hole.

Good Hunting,
Mike
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old colonel
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:47 pm  Reply with quote
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Chicago wrote:
I recently passed on a 16 bore #1 Army & Navy for sale in England because the minimum wall thickness was below my standard.


What is your minimum standard? How did you decide on it?

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Michael
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Chicago
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:52 pm  Reply with quote
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old colonel wrote:
Chicago wrote:
I recently passed on a 16 bore #1 Army & Navy for sale in England because the minimum wall thickness was below my standard.


What is your minimum standard? How did you decide on it?


.025 and I decided on that through conversations with several gunsmiths and collectors of English guns. I have friends who are very comfortable with >.020 and they still have all of their fingers and one collector I know insists that some Holland & Holland Best guns left the factory with .018 wall thickness. Not sure that fully answers your question and the condition of the barrels is probably just as important as the wall thickness (no pitting inside or out).
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Chicago
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:26 pm  Reply with quote
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I started the thread and had trouble with an image and now I can’t figure out how to delete it. So, I will try again with the subject title Vetting an English Gun.

Good Hunting,
Mike
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double vision
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:28 pm  Reply with quote
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"Rabbit Hole" is not a good describer for my thoughts on English guns if you're taking a negative connotation from it. I think English guns are wonderful. I've just already put enough time and more than enough money into SxS guns in general, so I'm not up for the English journey. I've found what I like and shoot best. My SxS journey has ended with a pair of 30" 16 gauge guns from Italy and Spain.
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:16 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Dave Erickson,

I am much like you and my Best London guns are now all gone. Used to put my daughter thru college. I have never owned a Purdey double gun, however the gun Dr Norris gave GBE was a beautiful 12 gauge and having carried it for a few hours one afternoon hunting Quail, I was very very impressed with the gun, especially the rose engraving. George carried my Silver Breech L.C. Smith 16 and immediately shot 2 Quail, he wanted that gun badly after using it so well on 2 very hard shots over 40 yard out. No way I was giving it up however, it was one of my Grandfather beautiful guns. I never did gun any birds with the Purdey, GBE had shortened the stock because of his rotator cup injuries and, unfortunately the gun did not fit me at all. It was a pleasure just waking the fields with it however, George loved that Purdey gun and was very proud of it.

My L.C. Smith double guns are the guns I like best, gunning Grouse with them is like an extension of my own body, which no other gun has ever been. Both the Boss guns and the one Churchill were nice guns but both needed worked on thru the years.

To say I am satisfied with my L.C. Smith double guns would be an understatement.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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old colonel
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:02 pm  Reply with quote
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Chicago wrote:
old colonel wrote:
Chicago wrote:
I recently passed on a 16 bore #1 Army & Navy for sale in England because the minimum wall thickness was below my standard.


What is your minimum standard? How did you decide on it?


.025 and I decided on that through conversations with several gunsmiths and collectors of English guns. I have friends who are very comfortable with >.020 and they still have all of their fingers and one collector I know insists that some Holland & Holland Best guns left the factory with .018 wall thickness. Not sure that fully answers your question and the condition of the barrels is probably just as important as the wall thickness (no pitting inside or out).


I understand your thinking and concur with your standard as a rule of thumb. My caveat would be where the thin spot is. While the general rule is to measure 9 inches from the muzzle, I think, I measure the whole length and not just there. Wanting a greater thickness in the choke as pressure grows slightly there. I also pay attention to the thickness in the first 9 inches. In particular I look for at least .090 at the end of the chamber and at least .045 9inches from the breech.

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Chicago
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:51 pm  Reply with quote
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old colonel wrote:
Chicago wrote:
old colonel wrote:
Chicago wrote:
I recently passed on a 16 bore #1 Army & Navy for sale in England because the minimum wall thickness was below my standard.


What is your minimum standard? How did you decide on it?


.025 and I decided on that through conversations with several gunsmiths and collectors of English guns. I have friends who are very comfortable with >.020 and they still have all of their fingers and one collector I know insists that some Holland & Holland Best guns left the factory with .018 wall thickness. Not sure that fully answers your question and the condition of the barrels is probably just as important as the wall thickness (no pitting inside or out).


I understand your thinking and concur with your standard as a rule of thumb. My caveat would be where the thin spot is. While the general rule is to measure 9 inches from the muzzle, I think, I measure the whole length and not just there. Wanting a greater thickness in the choke as pressure grows slightly there. I also pay attention to the thickness in the first 9 inches. In particular I look for at least .090 at the end of the chamber and at least .045 9inches from the breech.


You sound like my gunsmith and I respect his thoughts Very Happy
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double vision
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:36 am  Reply with quote
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Pine Creek/Dave wrote:
Dave Erickson,

I am much like you and my Best London guns are now all gone. Used to put my daughter thru college. I have never owned a Purdey double gun, however the gun Dr Norris gave GBE was a beautiful 12 gauge and having carried it for a few hours one afternoon hunting Quail, I was very very impressed with the gun, especially the rose engraving. George carried my Silver Breech L.C. Smith 16 and immediately shot 2 Quail, he wanted that gun badly after using it so well on 2 very hard shots over 40 yard out. No way I was giving it up however, it was one of my Grandfather beautiful guns. I never did gun any birds with the Purdey, GBE had shortened the stock because of his rotator cup injuries and, unfortunately the gun did not fit me at all. It was a pleasure just waking the fields with it however, George loved that Purdey gun and was very proud of it.

My L.C. Smith double guns are the guns I like best, gunning Grouse with them is like an extension of my own body, which no other gun has ever been. Both the Boss guns and the one Churchill were nice guns but both needed worked on thru the years.

To say I am satisfied with my L.C. Smith double guns would be an understatement.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man


Agreed. Finding a gun that you can shoot well, like, and won't fall apart, is more than enough.

I have and enjoy GBE's book, and the scene of he and his wife picking out Dr. Norris's Purdey, from walking up to the house, to driving away and 'not looking back,' is haunting. It's probably the most intense passage in 'shotgun lit' I've ever read.
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:46 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Dave Erickson,

I will add a little to what George wrote, because he told me about picking up the Purdey gun. What most people do not know is both he and Kay were in tears as they drove down the drive way. Both knowing it was an end of an era for them, at the passing of their treasured friend.

Dr Norris and the Evan's were like family to each other, Dr Norris is quoted in GBE's books and his dogs are mentioned by name. GBE was a very opinionated man and his feelings were hurt easily. Dr Norris was always kind to GBE, even when they had disagreements. GBE told me Dr Norris was like a 2nd father to him and he respected him as both a writer and a sportsman, more than any man he had ever met, excepting his own father.

Kay was very close to Dr Norris also and he helped her with some her mystery writing. One night at dinner at Old Hemlock Kay told us the story of how Dr Norris took time to make sure the book she was working on was absolutely perfect in both grammar and spelling. She often talked about Dr Norris as part of her own family. The trip down the drive way shook them up badly, they both never forgot leaving for the last time. It is true neither of them could look back at the big home.

GBE treasured his 12 gauge Purdey double gun mostly because it was given to him by Dr Norris, listening to GBE talk about Dr Norris was an education in itself. I went out and purchased Dr Norris's Eastern Upland Shooting book after GBE talked about him. The original numbered book is always in our upstairs bathroom for the different visiting sportsman to read. I never got to meet Dr Norris, however GBE talked about him so much, it's like I actually knew the man.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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"L.C. Smith America's Best" - John Houchins

Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers
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double vision
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:33 pm  Reply with quote
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Thanks for sharing that, Dave.
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:16 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Dave Erickson,

You are welcome sir, I always enjoy talking with you.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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"L.C. Smith America's Best" - John Houchins

Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers
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double vision
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:04 pm  Reply with quote
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Thanks, Dave.

You take care of yourself.
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Dave in Maine
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:01 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Sep 2010
Posts: 1972
Location: Maine

Brewster11 wrote:
Judging by the number of articles, books, and opinions published on the subject, as well as the numerous and seemingly endless threads here and elsewhere, it appears to me that establishing whether a British barrel is still in proof and determining adequate wall diameter (and thickness) is a very long and deep rabbit hole.
V/R
B.

Not really.
Determining adequate wall thickness is a matter of operating the appropriate tool correctly. The wall thickness is the critical dimension - if there is not enough then the gun can be considered unsafe and not suitable for shooting. How much is enough is something reasonable minds can disagree upon, and do.
Determining adequate wall diameter is not really an issue; if the gun was marked for a certain diameter it either has it or not. IF it no longer has the diameter marked on the gun, then it is almost certainly out of proof, regardless of the wall thickness. That also indicates someone has messed with the barrels at some point, which means further investigation is in order. But in or out of proof only matters when trying to sell a gun in England. It is of no import here because we do not have proof laws.
Not much of a rabbit hole, if you have the right tools.

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