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MSM2019
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:07 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

Disclaimer - Since I do not know enough about or deal with shotguns that weren't proof tested to modern standards none of what I have written should be used for those shotguns that cannot handle modern proof loads.

___________________________________________________________________
There seems to be interest in light payloads 3/4 oz. and under.

Just trying to save guys a bit of time and money here.

If you have a chronograph you can develop these loads without having to send loads out for testing.


For 3/4 oz. loads

If you use 700-X, Red Dot, Green Dot, American Select, IMR Red, IMR Green, use Federal, Cheddite, Fiocchi or RIO hulls and keep the velocity at or under 1300 FPS the chamber pressure will not exceed SAAMI MAP.

If you use 700-X, Red Dot, Green Dot, American Select, IMR Red, IMR Green use Remington or Winchester CF hulls and keep the velocity at or under 1200 FPS the chamber pressure will not exceed SAAMI MAP.

When dealing with 1/2 oz. and 5/8 oz. loads you have even more running room.

The DR-16 is perfect for these loads.


If you are using Federal, Cheddite, Fiocchi or RIO hulls, you can cut these down to 2 1/2" with no issue.

From my POV, I would stay away from Federal 209A and CCI 209M primers for these loads. Those two primers are fairly energetic and have the ability to pop the crimps before the powder charge gets going.

With any of the powders mentioned I believe a good starting point would be 15.0 grains


Last edited by MSM2019 on Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:34 am; edited 4 times in total

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Charles Hammack
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:21 am  Reply with quote
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Location: Central Missouri

Thanks Mark you were able to say the things I really can't due to the attorneys lurking around every corner.

I love my little loads , no pain , cheap to shoot , light to carry , and the smiling factor is really fun to watch as others dig into the light box leaving the factory loads alone.

If you would Mark please help the folks out on these load development issues where I simply cannot.

Thanks everyone .

Regards Nick
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:28 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

Hi Nick,

Obviously, I am being VERY conservative with my statements.

I just want folks to be able to try these light loads and see how they like them.

I have a nice 3/4 oz. load, it was tested by Tom Armbrust.

Cheddite 2 3/4 "
Winchester 209
18.0 grains American Select
DR-16
3/4 oz. magnum shot

1335 FPS 9480 PSI

No fillers and they load perfectly in my 9000G.

I picked American Select, because it is about as close to a single based powder as we have. It is very easy to ignite and I knew I could get some velocity out of it. I under estimated where max. would be on this load but at 1335 FPS, I love the patterns and the way it breaks clay targets.

700-X is next on the list.

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rdja
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:32 am  Reply with quote
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Location: SW Ohio

Here's another 3/4 oz load tested by Tom Armbrust
Cheddite hull
Win 209 primer
13.7 gr Alliant Extra Lite
DR-16
3/4oz lead

1278 fps 10420psi
pushing the powder up to 14.5 only gained an average of 19 fps but the pressure was 11540. So not worth the extra powder.

Not quite as quick as some others but its the same powder I use for my 12 ga 3/4 and 7/8 reloads, only difference is hulls and wads. Crushes clays, not bad on doves if they fly straight!!
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UncleDanFan
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:52 am  Reply with quote
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Those are pretty high pressure loads. Do you have any you'd care to share in the 6-7k psi range for old damascus guns?

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MSM2019
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:22 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
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Location: Central ND

Whenever I send a load in, I always try for max. I can always back the loads down.

So I don't have any loads that are actually 'low pressure'.

The reason for this thread is for folks that want to try the 1/2 oz. and 5/8 oz. loads, without testing loads that will never reach SAAMI MAP.

Since I do not know about or deal with shotguns that weren't proof tested to modern standards none of what I have written should be used for those shotguns that cannot handle modern proof loads.

I will also edit my first post with this statement.

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Hamishtheirishamish
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:58 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Feb 2020
Posts: 64
Location: Southern Illinois

Mark,

Neat how simple it is if approached logically, isn't it? I truly appreciate you posting this thread as I had come to the conclusion that I was going to keep my mouth shut on the net about loading after getting crapped on yet about a soft shooting load to introduce my grandkids to shotguns a couple of days ago on another forum.

700X, Green Dot, and Unique are my big 3, and have been researching light payloads in 12, 16, and 20 for a couple of weeks. I'm truly amazed at the velocity that can be attained using smaller than traditional loads. Many of the newer powders can be pushed much harder, but it's been hard to give up the old favorites when the cost is substantially lower.

BTW, agree 100% on the primer thing. I committed to W209's a long, long time ago with these powders.

Looking forward to seeing your findings with 700X. Wink
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:40 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
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Location: Central ND

700-X. I am going to try it with 3/4 oz. loads, but I won't have it tested.

I will start with the 1 oz. load and drop the same amount of powder as listed by Hodgdon and go from there.

What I am doing is nothing that hasn't been done for other loads using lighter shot drops.

We have gotten so used to chamber pressures being published, that a lot of folks are concerned when they don't have a chamber pressure listed. Years ago chamber pressures were never listed, with no ill affects.

I hope folks realize that it is only with sub-gauge loads that I would develop loads and
shoot them without having them tested.

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Hamishtheirishamish
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:23 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Feb 2020
Posts: 64
Location: Southern Illinois

"have gotten so used to chamber pressures being published, that a lot of folks are concerned when they don't have a chamber pressure listed. Years ago chamber pressures were never listed, with no ill affects. "

"Concerned"?

Just posting from the older load books bring all the Chicken Little's a runnin,,,,,

Laughing

Rich
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fn16ga
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:15 am  Reply with quote
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Tested by Lon
Cheddite hull 2 1/2"
Cheddite primer
15 grains 700X
DR16 wad
3/4 oz of 9s

With a 10-shot string Precision Reloading testing equipment showed an average velocity of 1,313 FPS, Standard Deviation (SD) of 5 and an Extreme Variation (EV) of 18. The pressure average was 9,089 PSI, SD of 311 PSI and EV of 880 PSI.
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:23 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
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Location: Central ND

Nice stuff, fn16ga!!

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kgb
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:23 am  Reply with quote
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MSM2019 wrote:


I have a nice 3/4 oz. load, it was tested by Tom Armbrust.

Cheddite 2 3/4 "
Winchester 209
18.0 grains American Select
DR-16
3/4 oz. magnum shot

1335 FPS 9480 PSI

No fillers and they load perfectly in my 9000G.

I picked American Select, because it is about as close to a single based powder as we have. It is very easy to ignite and I knew I could get some velocity out of it. I under estimated where max. would be on this load but at 1335 FPS, I love the patterns and the way it breaks clay targets.


That looks like a pretty sweet round, might make up as well with a G-wad in a 2.5" hull (I've got some RST's) and I use a lot of American Select in 12ga.

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3birddogs
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:38 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 07 Sep 2011
Posts: 567
Location: wheeling, wv

Mark, I use a load from the Hogdons reloading site:
cheddite 2 1/2" hull
cheddite or win 209 primer
DR 16 wad
International 16.6 gr
3/4 oz load
1200 fps @ 6700 psi
There are even milder loads listed there--this is a favorite of mine for Damascus/composite barrels. Also look at the 7/8 oz loads using Universal and the SG16 wad.
I shoot a lot of those 2 loads in my hammer guns.

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MSM2019
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:51 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

I think there are plenty of examples of good loads and data 3/4 oz. and up.

I primarily posted this topic for folks that want to try 1/2 and 5/8 oz. loads but were concerned that they would exceed SAAMI MAP.

The 3/4 oz. loads are a good place to start, for these lighter loads.

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gomerdog
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:56 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Sep 2015
Posts: 94
Location: Fremont County, Wyoming

For a ⅞ oz. load, I see from Hodgdon’s website that 15.6 grs. of International produces 10,500 psi of pressure, and 16.5 grains of the same powder produces 11,500 psi with DR-16 wads in Remington hulls, using W209 primers. So 16.0 grains of International should produce about 11,000 psi.

I figured if I used less shot, with 16.0 grains of powder, pressure should be less than 11,000. So, not having anything better to do, I used a Lee 3.1cc powder dipper, to measure 0.66 (⅔) oz of #8.5 shot in 25 rounds.

Went out to shoot this afternoon and had some fun. Light recoil and, when I did my part, targets turned to dust using two different shotguns.

Great wad, that DR-16.
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