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I can't imagine needing more than what my MECs provide.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1841 Location: Central ND

A MEC 600 Jr. Mark V is the base reloader. It works OK, but definitely not the best when it comes to resizing. Personally I don't like ring style size dies, especially when there is no lube. Saying that the LLA 2 will finsh crimp better is stretching the truth. Maybe on the old Winchester CF hulls you will get a nice crimp. Try some Cheddites, Federals or better yet Fiocchi, let me know what the crimps look like. Anyone that shoots more than a box a week will get tired of the LLA 2 in 2 months. Shoot 100 a week and you will need a new LLA 2 in a year.

The Sizemaster is the single stage press that people should buy. Primer feed and the collet resizer just makes life so simple. Crimps? I don't see any better crimps unless folks get a GAEP and add the extra step to the process....however that doesn't change the final outcome in ballistics, just that the finished shell looks nicer. I have proof that you can get single digit SD's loading on a Sizemaster. The loads in Precision Reloading's entire Blanks to Supersonics manual were developed using Sizemasters. There are no simpler machines to adjust and change from 2 1/2" up to 3 1/2".

The 8567 and 9000 series presses are best for situations where a lot of the same load will be run over and over. But just like the Sizemasters they are very easy to adjust.

To Adjust an MEC machine you MUST start with the crimp start. The precrimp must be closed down to a pencil lead diameter.

The next part of the puzzle is to adjust the cam starting with the adjustment halfway through the travel. I always back off on the crimp punch one full turn when trying a new load. I get the cam adjustment so it is just putting a radius on the hull, then I set the crimp depth. MOST of the time the cam will be centered in it's adjustment.

For 12 and 16 gauge shells I use 0.060" to 0.065" on the crimp depth.

It is so easy, BUT you need to be patient and make one adjustment at a time until you get to know the machine. If you adjust the crimp start, do not adjust the cam or the crimp depth until you reload a shell.

On the progressives, ONE SHELL at a time until you get the adjustments correct. If it won't do one shell right it isn't going to do 6 right.

The above assumes that you have the correct wad column height.

One of the nice features of the MEC machines is that they support the basewad when in the reprime station. Many other machines hold the hull by the rim and can set the primer too deep(or dish the metal head). You can't set a primer too deep on a MEC.

+1 Mark. Good explanation of the adjustment procedure. Exactly the right thing to do.

Ever tried this? When I set up a MEC for a new guy I do this with the fellow present: I use Mark's procedure. First I get the crimp starter to do a good job -- set low enough to close the crimp start pretty far, but not so low it crimps and buckles the intended location of the final crimp shoulder. Then back off the crimp punch quite a ways so it doesn't really touch the shell. Then also back off the crimp cam, or leave it's adjusting screw loose. (I was shocked to hear someone thought they needed a lock washer on that. Adding a lock washer is a good way to screw up the cam so it will not hold.) Then, in the crimp station, put a factory load or an excellent re-load of the same shell the new guy wants to reload. Put the lever down and hold it there. Then move the (loose) cam until the die stops against the shell. Use your fingers to pull or push the die down on the shell if necessary. Then tighten the lock screw on the cam. It doesn't take me three hands to do this, but if it does for you, the new guy has two under-employed hands at this point and likely can lend at least one. Let up on the lever, and let the new guy move the lever and feel what almost zero contact with the shell feels like. Then move the cam adjustment down about a sixteenth of an inch. Let the new guy feel what that's like against the factory shell. Explain to him you are setting the crimp die for proper shell length and evidence of a proper setting is a nicely rounded crimp edge. You're also looking for that slight resistance feeling at the bottom of the stroke that says you are nudging the the shell to round off its edge. Make sure to show the new guy the shell before and after adjusting the cam downward, so he can see what a properly rounded crimp edge is. If there isn't enough resistance, or if the shell displays no evidence of being slightly "rounded off" on the crimp shoulder, set the cam down a little more and repeat that exercise until the shoulder of the shell shows some rounding. The new guy should be able to feel the difference.

Then, with the lever down, and the factory load in the crimp die, screw the crimp punch down until you feel it touch the shell. (Loosen the locknuts beforehand and use a long screwdriver to screw the crimp closing punch down until you feel good contact with the shell. You can leave the locknut loose during this procedure until you get the adjustment where you want it -- its not going to go anywhere fast.) Then let the new guy feel what almost no contact feels like. Then set the adjustment down one half thread at a time until the factory load is being crimped to proper depth -- same depth as you mentioned, Mark. Then tighten the locknut on the crimp closing punch. That way, the new guy hopefully gets a feel for what the adjustments do, the necessary sequence, the feel of a good crimp, and the look of a good crimp. Then load a hull or two with the fellow. Slight adjustments still might be necessary, depending on the load, but hopefully now the new guy has a feel for the machine, is not afraid to make an adjustment, and feels like he is more the master of his destiny.

It's really quite simple, and there is a logical order to adjustment:

1) Set a crimp start height. Try to get the petals or fold at a fairly flat angle, about 45 degrees. Mark recommended the folds basically touching in the center, which is a good goal, but not always possible depending on the hull, the gauge and those darned black plastic Spindexes. (I have trouble with the black plastic Spindexes closing .410's and 28's sufficiently with AA-HS hulls, for instance, so I seek out, buy and use older MEC fixed or original metal Spindex crimp starters.) So why do you need a good crimp start? So the crimp closing punch can close the crimp folds without first crushing them.

2) Adjust for proper loaded shell length -- the cam. Why? To enable the crimp die to completely close the hull without crushing it, and to properly shape the crimp edge, which helps the crimp stay closed, and makes feeding flawless in repeaters. And then:

3) Adjust for proper crimp depth -- crimp closing punch. Why? Uniformity of load.

All these adjustments are independent on a MEC, though it is best to proceed in the above order. Without understanding this, trying to do these adjustments willy-nilly and out of order can potentially drive one crazy. Better to understand a develop a feel for your reloader, whatever brand or model it might be. Keep in mind also there can be quite a lot of hull length variation manufacturer-to-manufacturer, and sometimes batch-to-batch within the hulls of a given manufacturer (notably Remington in the small gauges), so some small amount of adjustment will likely be required of any reloader at some time if you reload a variety of hulls. Follow the above order in adjustment and go with confidence.

I've said nothing about proper height of the load in the hull. That is also necessary to produce a well-crimped reload. I will not go into that here, as it is sufficiently covered in some reloading manuals. It is another factor for which one must develop a feel, but it isn't rocket science. And remember, if you have properly set up your crimp stations, there is no need to fiddle with them (with a given hull type) if your load turns out too low (dished crimps that leak) or too high (poor closures and/or buckled hulls). Get the load height right by whatever means you can; that's the problem, not your crimp adjustments. I'd say quite a lot of load recipes in "the books" could benefit from some fill-height fiddling.

Joined: 21 Mar 2019 Posts: 523 Location: Texas

MSM and max smoke-
One question-‘where were you guys when I started reloading many years ago. Would have been nice, would of saved me much frustration. I guess sometimes we just learn the hard way, usually those lessons are not soon forgotten. Good read. Great information. I have been known to buy another reloader just because I don’t wanna change any settings, that sweet spot can be hard to find again. I will agree once you get it, it makes it easier to do again. I load on a mec and can’t see any reason to change at this point. They have great customer service in my experience also.

Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 1308 Location: Western WA

Excellent instructions on the MEC guys. One more tip: I know it shouldn’t make any difference but my crimps are vastly better when I remove the primer seating cup from the press. No idea why it helps but it sure makes it easier to form a good crimp.

B.

Joined: 21 Mar 2019 Posts: 523 Location: Texas

Is you punch bottoming out? Had that problem before.

Joined: 11 Dec 2017 Posts: 77 Location: South Dakota

Joined: 11 Dec 2017 Posts: 77 Location: South Dakota

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1841 Location: Central ND

megasupermagnum,

As I said, When I worked for Precision Reloading Inc, we developed thousands of loads on MEC Sizemasters over a 10 year period. The adjustability is there.

If you try to get the radius correct after you set the crimp depth many times you will crush the hull or the crimp comes out ugly.

Back out the crimp punch two turns, adjust the cam to get a nice radius on the shoulder of the crimp, without crushing the shell. Then you can set the depth of the crimp.

Joined: 11 Dec 2017 Posts: 77 Location: South Dakota

Maybe that's why PR only has a couple pamphlets of data, while Ballistic Products with their Ponsness Warren have dozens of huge books. Mr. Green

The MEC absolutely can work. They have more than needed adjustability, the problem is you have to adjust it for everything. Over and over. Have you loaded on a Ponsess Warren 375?

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1841 Location: Central ND

Since you opened the door. We are talking about Precision Reloading Inc. not Precision Reloading LLC.

Precision Reloading Inc. when it was in CT. We published a manual that had hundreds of loads in it.

The differences between PRI and BPI companies were. Every load that Precision developed FIT properly. Nothing extra in the hull except what is supposed to be there. All loads developed by Precision were actually shot and recorded in accordance with SAAMI Standards, including the use of reference ammo and the actual equipment used.

BPI sells manuals with loads that don't fit, adds fillers, cards, buffers, mica etc. Many of the loads do not fit because the wad column height is incorrect. NONE, self admittedly, of their loads are tested to SAAMI Standards. Their loads are developed using a computer program. These three items still true today.

So if that is the advertisement for Ponsness Warren developed loads, you can keep the Ponsness stuff.

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I know that isn't true about Ponsness Warren.

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Worked with a 375 once, but that wasn't enough to have an opinion of a Ponsness Warren single stage. Nice looking machine, it made nice looking reloads. It was already setup when I used it. Only did about a box of shells.

Joined: 11 Dec 2017 Posts: 77 Location: South Dakota

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1841 Location: Central ND

You opened the door!!

Lots of good information and discussion above. Not having a owner's manual when I bought my first MECjr. in the early 80s, I had to figure out a lot about the final station adjustment on my own! Although most of my reloads turned out OK, most early loads didn't have much of a taper to help chambering--they do now.

MS mentioned an issue that is important, but didn't discuss it much, i.e., stack height. Over the years, I've run into a number of loads in old "free" powder manufacturer manuals (got a bunch of these) that didn't stack right, period. I remember going to a 1 and 1/16 oz. load of shot in one with 4756 powder, splitting the difference between powder charges and shot loads of two published recipes.

This becomes more critical with some 16 gauge wads: wads with more rigid center sections such as Rem SP, BPI SG and BPI 1680 steel wads ain't gonna crush down for a too full load. On the other hand, the old WAA16s (and Claybuster clones) and I assume the BPI Z16 (haven't ever loaded any) give one a little wiggle room due to a "crushable" mid-section. For new reloaders, this may be useful info.

When WAA16 wads came on the market and I first started to use them, virtually every recipe that I tried had shot stacked well into the crimp section of the hull when shot was dropped. They are longer overall than the other lead shot wads, due to a much longer "mid-section" than the others. Crushability makes them very usable however.

(and fiber wads allow one to adjust the stack height, just right!).

Never used a Lee machine, but I loaded thousands of shotgun hulls in the 60s and into the 70s with a Lee hand loader in 16 gauge. I think I'll stick with my 600jr. for what I currently need, which is about a flat of various hunting loads a year. A great machine for my needs (but a VersaMec would be better!)

Thanks MS and MSM for the info. Great stuff.

Mike

4setters -- The VersaMec is the 700. If you have a 600 Jr. you are only two parts away from a 700. Just replace the Eject Cam, (P/N 100723, or HDW723, or 723 -- same part multiple designations through history) with P/N 100764, $5.25 from MEC and replace Eject Bolt (P/N 10046010, or HDW460-10, or 460-10 -- same part multiple designations through history) with P/N 100760, $5.05 from MEC. Ta-Daaa!! Now you can eject hulls with very high metal bases from the resize ring.

Alternatively you could go to the hardware store and get a 4-inch long 1/4-20 hex-head capscrew (bolt) and replace the original Eject Bolt. Don't worry if the threaded section looks too long. Just lube it up and go, it doesn't take much side-load, so the shank won't wear out very fast -- probably not in your lifetime, certainly not in what's left of mine. That'll work to eject long-headed cases, too, but won't last as long -- slightly worse cam geometry causes more friction, sliding, effort and wear. It will last plenty long, though, if you apply a sparing amount of grease to the cam and bolt head -- grease that stays put -- and then keep the surfaces clean so the grease doesn't attract dust and become a grinding compound. I just did this on an old 12 gauge MEC Case Conditioner which is the resize partner to my ancient MEC650 which I have rigged up to use on one of my Automates, by the way. The Case Conditioner, which was superseded by the Super-Sizer, has the same de-prime, re-size and ejection scheme as the 600, and many of the same parts, but it cannot use the currently made long-stroke eject cam and eject bolt found on the newest 600 and the old 700, so I had to try the "long bolt" idea. Fortunately, it worked. I did it so I could resize those ultra-high chromed steel base blue Rio 12 gauge hulls -- they're made by Cheddite -- I love these hulls for heavier hunting loads -- lots of capacity, great crimp memory. They make very handsome re-loads. Being a big fan of Peters Cartridge Company and the look of their old Hi-Velocity shells, I'm a sucker for blue shells, but I digress.

Another distinguishing feature of the first VersaMec, which still carries through to the current 600 Jr. is the Pro-Check. If you have a Pro-Check, P/N 100751E, and like it, keep it. If you want one, or think you need one, you can buy one from MEC, but I think that is a poor use of $12.70 plus tax and shipping -- just my humble opinion, though. I recommend removal of the Pro-Check. You don't need it. It's an answer to a problem that doesn't really exist, and a PITA. Take it off and throw it away, or save it for the next guy. Let me know if you simply have to have one, and the next time I see you I'll give you one. I must have a half dozen in the parts drawer!

Cheers!