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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:50 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2786
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

kgb,

Kirk I knew you would point out the modern L.C. Smith 28 gauge, made in Spain by Zabala for Marlin. Yes it is a simple well made box lock double gun, quality wise no where near the original L.C. Smith engineering. It is a fun gun to shoot and IMO not really built on a 28 gauge frame, more like a 20 gauge frame. For the money expended, a nice box lock double gun. I sure wish Marlin would have contracted AYA to build a real nice side lock with the Brown Rotary bolt as a true reproduction, rather than the Zabala box lock. Few L.C. Smith owners want a Hunter Special box lock gun.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

My incredible Gordon Setter Female Grouse dog with one of her beautiful Pa Grouse, and the modern Spanish 28 gauge Zabala made L.C. Smith. Box Lock gun with side plates and modern Spanish Engraving. A nice little modern box lock double gun.


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kgb
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:53 pm  Reply with quote
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Pine Creek/Dave wrote:


I own some modern Box Lock guns also. However they do not get used for my traditional Grouse hunting,

We take our Grouse hunting around here very seriously, and use the appropriate tools to accomplish the job.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man



Just reminding you of your contradictions, Dave! Next thing, you'll admit to using a Model 12 (16ga of course) in pursuit of the king of upland birds.

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16'er
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:47 am  Reply with quote
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Location: Tappahannock, Virginia

Back on the OT: CSMC has Your Gun listed on GB:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/868816577

I'd contact them (CSMC) directly with your offer.
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16'er
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:26 am  Reply with quote
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16'er wrote:
Back on the OT: CSMC has Your Gun listed on GB:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/868816577

I'd contact them (CSMC) directly with your offer.


You can either spend the rest of your budget having the M21 engraved before it leaves CSMC, or you can buy this and have all the bases covered:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/873797515

(BTW, I'd personally never buy a gun at these price points through gunbroker. Unless it's from a known dealer, I could get a FtF deal, or there was some serious reason for me to trust the person on the other side of the deal/assurances. GB will be of NO help at all if something goes south. )
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:46 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2786
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

kgb,


I often do forget the modern 28 is a box lock, they say it is a L.C. Smith so it must be a side lock gun! Not. Some of the girls who visit the log cabin do use the M12 for Grouse hunting, they love how light it is to carry. Me not so much. Now I do also use my J.P. Sauer 16 gauge side lock guns all the time for Grouse hunting. The 555 savage 28 is a box lock and gets used a lot for training young gun dogs also. Very light gun to work with while training and I can lay it in the dirt & wet grass if needed, while handling a young dog. The 555 was bought specifically so I do not have to use my good L.C. Smith or J.P. Sauer guns for dog training. So I do use the box lock guns for different purposes. My Ithaca/LeFever gun is a box lock that is treated like a side lock, mostly used for Pheasant hunting. It's not that I do not like box lock guns, I do use them for different purposes, such as Clay shooting.

IMO the Side Lock gun will always be the superior engineering.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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cowdoc87
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:58 pm  Reply with quote
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The 21 market is way down, and 16’s aren’t selling at that price or anything near that. Though heavy, they aren’t that ugly, stout and durable, and the extra weight is good especially if you wanna shoot more like 12 gauge loads at late season phes or waterfowl, unless you enjoy trying overcome a flinching habit or a bruised cheekbone. A young man never complains about the weight of a shotgun, as long as it goes off and the feathers go “poof”.
May as well add a Perazzi Ribless Game Gun to the potential wish list Smile
And why hasn’t a Westley Richards Droplock been mentioned, while we muse over such?
(And I’ve got a Bertuzzi 16 Venere that I don’t shoot particularly well, if interested:)

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double vision
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:33 am  Reply with quote
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I’ve noticed the worshippers of the light gun mainly ooh and ah about the numerals and the gorgeous wood. Never ever hear much about the actual shooting.
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kgb
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:28 am  Reply with quote
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Pine Creek/Dave wrote:
My Ithaca/LeFever gun is a box lock that is treated like a side lock, mostly used for Pheasant hunting. It's not that I do not like box lock guns, I do use them for different purposes, such as Clay shooting.

IMO the Side Lock gun will always be the superior engineering.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man


Dave, might be that I treat my boxlocks as sidelocks, same goes for the repeaters! You will have to forgive yourself for hunting ruffies with your boxlocks that are treated like sidelocks, nothing I can do about that. Just keep that M12 handy for a dose of reality when needed, I don't think we've discussed Auto-5s but that would be even better.

IMO the Auto-5 will be the superior engineering. Some sidelocks can show fine workmanship, so they've got that going for them. They all put lead downrange, often where we want them to. Wink

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:06 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

kgb,


Nobody ever said I was perfect, I do sin once in a while by using different kinds of guns. What I happen to like best I recommend to other Grouse hunters, and have even gifted to them from time to time.

Hope all is well in your home.


Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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kgb
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:27 am  Reply with quote
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So far so good, bud. Keep it that way in yours as well!

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Bore, n. Shotgun enthusiast's synonym for "gauge" ; everybody else's synonym for "shotgun enthusiast." - Ed Zern
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Chicago
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:28 pm  Reply with quote
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Dave Erickson wrote:
I’ve noticed the worshippers of the light gun mainly ooh and ah about the numerals and the gorgeous wood. Never ever hear much about the actual shooting.


FWIW I don’t think people talk so much about light weight as handling characteristics and that generally leads to really good shooting. A gun doesn’t have to be light to have great handling characteristics, but most great field guns tend to be somewhat lighter. When it comes to clay guns a lot of those are 8 lbs and handle exceptionally well.

What is wrong with gorgeous wood? For lots of folks that is really important and it has little to do with how the gun shoots. However, if a person feels really good about their gun it might boost their confidence a tad and that can’t hurt the shooting. My taste lean towards straight grain wood, but to each their own.

Good Hunting,
Mike
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tramroad28
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:37 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

The old, old story.

"Good" wood can affect handling and, in a way, shooting, as it...can..be heavier, so requiring work to achieve or maintain a real world effective balance for each person and each use. Work not always done.
Same for sticking on a sticky pad...once we fiddle one place we ...normally..then fiddle or, at times, ignore another place.
Or, we declare a gun message board perfect at the moment...and no one really knows. Smile
I've been there with all that, mistakes and all.

I have found over nearly 16+ years around these message boards that..balance...only followed lightweight in description and importance as balance became the buzz word.
Granted, this light deal was most often around the idea of a "ruffed grouse"shotgun....the old "I carry it more than I shoot it" line spouted as an enabler.
I reckon pheasant hunters do not get tired...or are only young sprouts.

Actually, I believe one of the great and marvelous truths of birdhunting is the miracle that we all gain super strength at the time of a flush.
Too fast being more often a true-er problem than too slow.
With too heavy +8# being a burden much the same as -6#, in a real world where the shooter always has the advantage.
Plus, who wants to shoot' em all?..that middle ground of 6-8 or, pick 7#, works well enough, always has and always will.
Any rest is simply the fluff that tugs at us all.

I have better held memories in "should of" than "done did"....not all of course and no one wishes to wound and lose but...if I was to ever advise a youngster and I did once when introducing a young, never hunted 13 year old girl named Amber in Iowa...relax, this is supposed to be fun.
Watch the dog....feel the air, breathe....take joy and pride in just being here, the little stuff will eventually follow.
Not sure if Amber still hunts but my buddy did name a setter pup after her.

Coffee gone...make it a nice day....it will be.


Last edited by tramroad28 on Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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double vision
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:38 am  Reply with quote
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Mike, there is nothing wrong with gorgeous wood or light weight for that matter. My point, which was clear as mud, is too much is made of light weight and wood aesthetics rather than good shooting characteristics. Just my opinion. I like the options the OP is looking at because they represent real value to me. Guns that can perform well in the field and the range. Then again, I'm a shotgunner who values the metric clay target performance in all my hunting guns. I don't own or care to own a heavy 8 pound type target gun. All good. I'll tone down my opinions now that I've said my piece.
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Chicago
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:55 am  Reply with quote
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Fair enough I just had trouble seeing through the mud.

Good Hunting,
Mike
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:39 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Dave Erickson,

I agree sir, if I have a real heavy gun it's for Goose and Duck hunting, however it better carry and shoot well. My old L.C. Smith Pigeon Grade gun is one of those type guns. I have to admit my Silver Reserve II 28/20 combo gun is built on the 20 frame and because of it's weight it is a good clays gun. It's not a gun that handles like the L.C. Smith 20 gauge in the Grouse woods for sure. Then again it does not cost like a #5 Smith gun either. I find well balanced guns for hunting cost every bit as much as a good clays gun, especially the graded Classic American double guns.

A sportsman has to pay for his quality guns and some times he does not get what he pays for, especially with the modern guns.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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