16ga.com ~ View topic

Biggest barriers to the 16?

1) 20 gauge
2) 12 gauge
3) General decline in upland hunting participation as an activity
4) General decline in upland gamebirds outside their sweet spots of viability
5) Aging hunters
6) Boredom with bandwagons.

16s never were high in interest re clays.
Non-tox is small taters.
The 3" 16 gives many folks the wagging jeebies.

*Last edited by skeettx on Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:51 pm; edited 7 times in total*

Moved it to this page

01 Sept 20 08 doves, Tristar Brittany 410 3” #6 Herter’s Rained out
02 Sept 20 15 doves, Remington 3200 16 gauge, Herter’s ammo sticks in chamber
03 Sept 20 15 doves, Browning Superpose RKLT 20 IC/Mod
04 Sept 20 15 doves, Browning Superpose RKLT 12 Mod/Full
05 Sept 20 15 doves, Browning Citori 16 gauge Sk & Sk
07 Sept 20 14 doves, Remington 3200 12 ga Mod/Full 40+ Wind
08 Sept 20 NO HUNT 46 degrees, raining and windy
09 Sept 20 NO HUNT Rain
10 Sept 20 NO HUNT 38 degrees and rain
11 Sept 20 15 doves American Arms Brittany 20 gauge
12 Sept 20 15 doves L.C. Smith Quality 3 made in 1893, Briley 20 ga tubes
14 Sept 20 15 doves Liegeous D’Arms A Fue 16 O/U, (1927) Herter’s #6
15 Sept 20 15 doves Belgian GECO (1945) 16 ga SXS 2 1/2" ammo
16 Sept 20 15 doves Krieghoff Drilling 16 ga 2 1/2" ammo
Under barrel is 8x57R .318, Sure is HARD to get used to side safety and not barrel selector
17 Sept 20 15 doves, Helice French 12ga SXS 2 1/2" ammo
18 Sept 20 15 doves, Zamacola Sidelock 12 Ga. SXS

No non-tox used

Mike

Joined: 07 Jun 2020 Posts: 228

The 16 is an outlier

It lays between the 12 and 20 poles.

It is an acquired taste.

Those who stumble on it are lucky

Joined: 14 Feb 2017 Posts: 401

Dare to be different!

Joined: 13 Oct 2015 Posts: 348

The problems in the OP are mostly due to living in California, not 16ga based.
Backridge ammo, 1oz #6 bismuth, $30 for 25 shells. I can order it delivered to my house free shipping, delivered in 3 days. Can you in Cali? No. Your ammo problems are actually STATE problems you have misidentified. I shoot lead for dove walking around desert. So does most everyone else in the country. State problem.

You can load up a box of 7/8oz steel 6s in 16ga using a Lee Load all or a roll die, for $25 either one. Just order a bag of primed hulls, some wads, and a few pounds of powder delivered to your door this week. About $6 a box, 30 min work... oh, you can't order that stuff to your house? State problem.
Sorry it is difficult to exercise your freedoms there, it is one of many reasons folks choose not to live there. If you can order that backridge 1oz bismuth, you will like it.

You're right that nontox is important though, Sporting Days. And IMO that is a major inhibitor to 16ga popularity, due to poor ammo offerings. Most big box store that sell ammo will have 15/16oz #4 steel at 1300fps for 16ga, if they have anything.
Remington makes only nitro steel 2 or 4 in this anemic load.
Federal makes bb, 2, and 4 15/16oz steel at 1350fps for 16. Still slow.
Winchester makes zero 16ga nontox.
Why would anyone thinking about shooting steel ever consider a 16ga? Any young or new shooter or person of limited means looking for a shotgun would be foolish to consider a 16ga, just based on a complete lack of ammo options. Sorry, its the truth. Sixteen gauge is a gun for nostalgia, aficionados, those with money to toss on a lesser functionality tool handicapped by a lack of ammo support, collectors, etc. Or fringe guys like myself enjoying using granddads old gun.

BUT, once you've actually got the gun in hand, I don't think the availability of a nontox load lighter than 1 oz of 6 bismuth is really an inhibitor to the 16 gauge. No one ever needed a light nontox non duck load until this year or last really. It's main Nail in the coffin is not being included in skeet competing gauges. Also, it's just not enough smaller from a 12-gauge to have any functional Advantage really. It's costly for manufacturers to produce a smaller 16 gauge frame rather than just Machining a 12 gauge frame, and when they do there's very little weight savings. More weight can be saved by producing a 20 gauge frame, and the 20 gauge allows a broader Spectrum of loads with its 3 in chamber, as well as being able to shoot smaller 2.75 in packages.

Additionally the lower Sammy pressure specs for the 16 gauge are a large inhibitor to improving 16 gauge shotshells. 12 gauge with 3.5 inch Chambers have a much higher working pressure to allow faster and larger loads, virtually every 20 gauge has a 3-inch chamber which allows pressures up to 12000 enabling steel non-toxic speeds of 1500 for a full ounce. Even 28 gauge as a thousand more PSI to work with and 410 which are all virtually 3-inch Chambers has an extra 2000 PSI. When working with steel loads that extra one to 3000 psi is critical. Because of this the 16-gauge cannot really accelerate a full ounce of Steel up as fast as a 3in 20ga, making it a week alternative for nontox steel shooting to the 3 in 20 gauge.

Sorry, I love my 16 gauge and it was my only gun for 21 years, but functionally it does not perform as well as 20 gauge or 12 gauge with steel. I spend a lot of time doing steel load testing, and while I've got a better 16 gauge load than is commercially available, it's not as good as what I have achieved with 20 gauge.

However you can certainly do well with 400gr or 7/8oz steel loads at 1450 to 1500 fps, which are achievable in 16ga for handloaders. Ammo makers dont load these due to the high numbers of folks shooting older non-modern 16ga guns, preferring to meep lressures low , I believe. In this case our flirt with nostalgia hurts us. If you have a modern gun and load up to SAAMI spec of 11500psi, you can absolutely rock steel with a 16ga if that is your preferred weapon. I love the challenge of this reloading hurdle.

Despite this I recently bought a 1988 auto5 16ga with invector chokes for steel duck hunting, and 15 flats of 1oz lead 8s for dove.

12ga 2.75″, 3″ = 11,500psi; 3.5″ = 14,000psi
16ga 11,500psi
20ga 2.75″, 3″ = 12,000psi
28ga = 12,500psi
410ga 2.5″= 12,500psi; 3″ = 13,500psi.

Hmm... maybe I agree with you Sporting Days, more than I thought Wink

thx for a fun pkst to think about and read the other comments.

Guest

The 16 gauge will never make a real surge back to widespread popularity. It is what it is; a niche thing for those of us who like to march to our own drummer. I also feel it's the perfect upland gauge for how I hunt.

Gentlemen,

The biggest barrier that I can see is that we have a shrinking hunting population and the 16 has always been the Grouse hunters gun of choice. With most of us Grouse & Woodcock hunters already owning quality Classic American 16 gauge double guns from the past, that are just as good today as they were brand spanking new, the sales of the new guns will not be high in numbers. Not using the 16 for the clays games, does not help the sales of 16 gauge guns either.

The 16 gauge is a specialty hunting gun and for many years most of us rolled our own shells just to be able to hunt with our guns. Fortunately now we have a good number of different kinds of shells available for our guns today.

If you are a serious Grouse hunter most of the time you already own more than one 16 gauge double gun. Unfortunately there are very few of us left from the old days to purchase the new 16 gauge guns. The number of Grouse hunters has decreased over 60% in the past 5 years.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Also with the passing of many of our Grouse hunters some real fine 16 gauge guns are becoming available to the public on GI, and other sales outlets. So unless a sportsman wants to pay over 5K for a new gun, the quality 16 gauge guns are still the original American Classics. This will in no way help the sales of new modern 16 gauge double guns.

Here in the Northwest, I know lots of 16 shooters, but they use it mostly for upland. We all know a small frame, light 16 is the quintessential upland gauge. However, it's a tougher sell for waterfowl, unless you go with a heavier frame and barrels to handle stout loads, which negates the inherent advantages of a 16. That said, the new sweet 16 is a welcome addition to start changing that dynamic.

Also, I shot skeet yesterday with a 12 and a couple 16's, and the 16 is hands down is so much more pleasurable to shoot. Maybe as a group we need to petition the people in charge of national skeet rules to include it in competition. We could at least try. The bias against it seems nonsensical, other than availability of ammo. And that would change quickly if it became included in national skeet events.

Joined: 16 Nov 2006 Posts: 367

Spoke with the Winchester Rep there about the 16, and he said winchester will not
duo any development on the 16, we'reconcentrating on the 12ga & 20ga, in the 2-3/4 and 3".

This ws after the Remington did a new run of the R16 wads and SOLD out1 The folowing year the WAA16 equivielent was release her on this forum.

Joined: 14 Feb 2017 Posts: 401

Joined: 07 Jun 2020 Posts: 228

About 2-3 birds in 100 All other things wing equal.

Joined: 27 Jan 2016 Posts: 490 Location: Oswego, Kansas

There is really no disadvantage to shooting a 16 in a 12ga event at skeet Many regular shooters shoot their 20ga guns or tubes in the 12ga event because at 21 yards there is no real difference.. Many people shoot ultralight 3/4oz or 7/8oz loads in their 12ga guns
I used my 16ga Ringneck SXS in 12ga event when I shot registered skeet because I shot it better than my 12ga guns..

Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 1310 Location: Western WA

Very relevant and timely question from OP. Yes, notox ammo is problematic everywhere at this moment for 16 ga, but so is 16ga ammo in general, reloading notwithstanding.

16ga reloaders in CA should already be fully supplied with all notox components by this point. Unfortunately a non-reloading 16 ga hunter in CA may be forced into 12 ga.

The question should be asked, what type of hunting is involved? Use of 16ga for waterfowl today is very questionable given notox requirements everywhere, not sure 16 ga can be justified for waterfowl on economic or sporting grounds. Walkup jump shooting might be the only case where 16ga might be warranted for waterfowl. 12 ga is preferable otherwise, maybe even mandatory.

Quail is traditionally a 20/28 ga pursuit. 16 ga is no less overkill than 12 ga for quail.

Dove are valid use for 16 ga. But who needs lightweight fast handling gun when sitting on a stool in a bean field?

Grouse is right in the sweet spot for 16ga. Does CA have huntable populations of grouse?

That leaves pheasant, for which 16 ga is well suited if not ideal, lead or notox either way. Are pheasants in CA?

So 16ga grouse and pheasant hunters are definitely squeezed in CA, and soon to be elsewhere as the notox mandate spreads. No answer except learn to reload and like it. For other game, 16 ga with notox is not ideal anyway.

Possibly a more significant question is future of 20 ga in a notox world. My limited experience with steel 20ga tells me it is a crippler for pheasant. And who needs 20 ga in a duck blind, or standing in flooded timber, or sitting on a stool? Get one of those lightweight 12ga autos for that. Which leaves quail, grouse and dove for notox 20 ga, small potatoes in the commercial firearms market.

V/R
B.

Joined: 09 Aug 2007 Posts: 444 Location: WI

As was mentioned earlier, 16 gauge factory steel loads are a little anemic, and based on my personal experience just don't have what it takes to drop a goose effectively unless you get them in the head and neck. That's why I have a Winchester SX3 for waterfowl duty.

That said, I make a point of having a box of #4 or #2 for those times when I'm grouse hunting and have the chance to jump shoot some ducks. Biggest hassle with that is making sure my pockets are empty of lead loads when switching over to duck mode...

Joined: 09 Feb 2015 Posts: 822

I must say for the past 6 years all i shoot is 16 ga. I love playing the game at many different clubs. Just Bout 90% of the time my winnings pays foe my shooting. Usually 60 to 90 dollarrs a night for my fees in the games. But usually go home with 10 to 20 dollars in my pocket after deducting my winnings. Over the last few years I've had many guys give me shells, wads, emptiy hulls, factory rounds of the past plus all kinds of goodies. I have never felt handicapped in any trap game. 90% of the time I'M in shoooffs. Guys come around just to watch me in sbootoffs to see what the 16 will do.
Its easy to get in peoples heads when competing against the good sbooter 12 ga guys. They cant stand to be beat by a 16. So when we go back on shootoffs i mention that i might not have a big enough gun to do the job. Then when they get beat I mention that they shouldnt be using those cannons. Their just TO heavy. I like to hummer the crowd alittle.

As far as using non toxic shot, i don't. Never did and wont. Scientific studies have prove the lead does not hurt anyone or poison waterfoul. It all was a play by the wildlife clubs to dupe the people in hopes of eliminating hunting. Then the manufactures realised there was money to be made in the nontoxic shot.

Well ive said to much and its my bed time. Lights out.