16ga.com Forum Index
Author Message
<  16ga. Ammunition & Reloading  ~  Is bismuth here to stay?
Emtymag
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:06 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 05 Oct 2017
Posts: 284
Location: Central MN

Is bismuth here to stay this time around?

In the late 90’s early 2000’s Winchester came out with some but then it faded away as fast as it showed up.

Then Kent matrix came out and is too pricey for me.

I’m considering plunking down a good chunk of money to buy a few thousand rounds of bismuth shot in 16ga and 12ga.

Thoughts?

Thanks

_________________
What's behind what your shooting at?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PatrickB
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:59 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 592
Location: Minnesota

Your guess is as good as anyone else's.

Bismuth was approved as a no-tox option in the 1990s and sold by Bismuth Cartridge Company until 2007 when the owner died. Winchrster and then Bis-Maxx offered retail loads for a period of time. Then there was a gap in factory Bismuth offerings (at least in the U.S. market) until a few years ago when Rio started offering factory loads again. There are now a handful of factory retail options from Kent, Winchester, Rio, Backridge, RST, Hevi-Bismuth and so on. The UK market has been offering factory loads for many years. That is the factory retail storyline. For reloaders it has been available since I started reloading it over the last 10 or more years.

How long does it stay an option is unclear but odds are high it continues.

JMO
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MSM2019
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:00 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

Bismuth, never really went away as far as reloading goes.

The Winchester ammo deal was a loooonnngggg time ago.

Winchester, Kent, RST, Boss, Federal all make Bismuth ammunition. Boss, RST and Kent make it in 16 gauge.

_________________
Mark...You are entitled to your own opinion. You aren't entitled to your own facts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
case 1775
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:40 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Jan 2018
Posts: 159

MSM2019 wrote:
Bismuth, never really went away as far as reloading goes.

The Winchester ammo deal was a loooonnngggg time ago.

Winchester, Kent, RST, Boss, Federal all make Bismuth ammunition. Boss, RST and Kent make it in 16 gauge.
and hevi

_________________
al
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
calebg
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:36 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 218

Emtymag wrote:
Is bismuth here to stay this time around?

In the late 90’s early 2000’s Winchester came out with some but then it faded away as fast as it showed up.

Then Kent matrix came out and is too pricey for me.

I’m considering plunking down a good chunk of money to buy a few thousand rounds of bismuth shot in 16ga and 12ga.

Thoughts?

Thanks


How many rounds do you shoot a year? I'd maybe buy a few years worth, but I wouldn't buy decades worth.

The trajectory of nontox rounds is that they've generally gotten better and cheaper over time. If I had laid in a huge stock of the Bismuth from fifteen or twenty years ago, I would now regret it since there's better and cheaper stuff available.

My experience with the newer Bismuth is limited to the Kent loads, but they're a long way from perfect. I recently cut open a shell, and the pellets are only roughly round. My experience has also been that the patterns can be so-so. My point isn't that they're bad, but that there's obvious room for incremental improvement.

The argument I see for laying in a few years' supply is that there have been interruptions to niche availability in the past, and that'll likely happen again. Having enough to bridge that sort of gap makes sense to me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brewster11
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:28 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 1301
Location: Western WA

I can't say I prefer bismuth over ITX-10 for pheasant, in fact quite the opposite. I suspect I simply haven't learned to shoot bismuth correctly yet, i.e., lead, trajectory, timing, etc.

Having said that, last season, on his first bird hunt with his very first shot, my son dropped a pheasant heading away at 45-50 yds (my estimate) with Kent Bismuth. So it can be done with bismuth.

B.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Old colonel2
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:54 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 07 Jun 2020
Posts: 224

Concur with the recommendation not to overdue the stockpile.

I believe that you will find the market will get better in terms of quality and price on Bismuth in the coming years. I think back to how awful the first bismuth I brought was in terms of size consistency and brittleness. More recent stuff from BPI and Rotometal was much better.

I have not loaded non tox in awhile. If I was to it would only be for pheasants in non tox areas.

I have been told it maybe possible to purchase plated Bismuth in the near future. That might be a good improvement if the shape, size, hardness is consistent and there are not brittleness issues.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
megasupermagnum
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:59 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 11 Dec 2017
Posts: 77
Location: South Dakota

Old colonel2 wrote:
Concur with the recommendation not to overdue the stockpile.

I believe that you will find the market will get better in terms of quality and price on Bismuth in the coming years. I think back to how awful the first bismuth I brought was in terms of size consistency and brittleness. More recent stuff from BPI and Rotometal was much better.

I have not loaded non tox in awhile. If I was to it would only be for pheasants in non tox areas.

I have been told it maybe possible to purchase plated Bismuth in the near future. That might be a good improvement if the shape, size, hardness is consistent and there are not brittleness issues.


I feel rather confident that Bismuth shot is here to stay. The reason being the cost has become very competitive. I know that the whole "speed kills", and the general opinion that steel shot is better than it was 10 years ago (which it is not) is popular. I believe that as more people try bismuth shot, they will realize just how limited steel shot is. Of course there are many out there who you could give them a shell full of rocks and it wouldn't matter much. And then there are others who you could give the best of the best 18 g/cc TSS shells, and they still couldn't reach those 100 yard skybusting shots.

Then there are those like myself, who hunts very pressured areas, and the shots I get are 40-60 yard shots. Sure I get plenty of closer ones, and have to let longer ones pass, but the bulk skirt the decoys, or try and land just outside them. It's either make those 40-60 yard shots, or go home. I loaded steel shot for 10 years, tried everything in the book and then some. Steel shot is a 40 yard and in game. The most wicked 12 gauge and 10 gauge loads might push that out to 45 yards. Those claiming 50+ yard shots are either not using a rangefinder, or they have a disproportionate number of cripples.

Bismuth shot opens up the window. While my 12 gauge load is not good for under 35 yards, with #4 bismuth is only running what most consider slow at 1300 fps,. Using a full choke, that load has both the pattern and pellet energy to make a clean kill to 60 yards. I have proven this by recovering shot, most often in the far side breast at those ranges. Inside of 50 yards is almost all pass through. I should mention that the bulk of my ducks are wood ducks, scaup, ringnecks, gadwal, and mallards. If you were open water hunting for big ducks like canvasback, or seaduck hunting, your preferences might be different.

Geese are another matter altogether. Snows are either far beyond any hope of shotgun range, or right in your face. They are almost always hunted in fields, where cripples are of less concern. That would be where I would think about using steel shot. Canadian geese can be hunted close in, but often are long shots. Pass shooting can be very effective in the right areas. The problem here is with a bird that usually runs 10+ pounds as an adult, that you need a large shot to penetrate that far. I would be willing to bet that the majority of pass shot geese were either hit in the head/neck, or broke a wing. #2 steel shot, no matter how fast you launch it, does not have the penetration to get through the breasts of a large goose at any real distance.

In my steel shot loading hayday, I tried some very big shot, but in a 12 gauge never got a good pattern with anything over BBB. One of the very best steel shot goose loads was the Remington 1 3/4 ounce (not a typo) 10 gauge T shot. That load patterned well, and even though it only ran 1250 fps, had penetration to at least 45-50 yards. Even with a good pattern though, that's only about 90 pellets in that shell which limited range. Instead, I feel like BB is about as good as it gets with steel shot on geese. In 12 gauge, pellet counts are still low, but it usually works well enough to about 40 yards. I tried other sizes. One 870 LOVED B size shot, and every other gun hated the same load. #1 steel usually patterns ok, but it's the same old story there. Broken wings, or lucky head shots. I've heard some theory's of smaller pellets, and hope for a head shot. In actual practice I've found this to not work great, and you better chew carefully.

Geese was what really got me hooked on bismuth. After a lifetime of shooting geese, and just accepting broken wings and just hoping to bring the bird down, I was blown away the first time. BANG, goose feet up on the water. I had never seen anything like it. After a few years of that trend continuing, I can say I am very impressed. Unless you are shooting geese in your face, steel shot simply does not work that great for large geese. Bismuth shot does.

Another nice thing about bismuth, is you do not need anything special to load or shoot it. Now I don't worry about which gun I'm shooting, it's safe in them all. All that messing around with special steel shot wads, Alliant STEEL powder, and other specific components, gone.

Less work, for better performance, with reduced recoil. What's not to like?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Barnyard Drake
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:52 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Jan 2019
Posts: 48
Location: Indiana

Mega,

If you have not already, I'd recommend trying loads of bismuth with buffer.

Tom Roster's book on buffered lead/bismuth opened my eyes to what bismuth can really do when the shot is "cushioned" before it comes out of the gun. Next to harder shot (why does everyone love Boss shells-they're copper coated-not washed) buffering can make a world of difference.

A (real) full choke or modified choke, depending on the gun and how it patterns, can provide 60-70%patterns at pass shooting range with bismuth.

If that's all you primarily do, pass shoot, and want to kill more birds, give it a try.

BD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
megasupermagnum
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:50 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 11 Dec 2017
Posts: 77
Location: South Dakota

Barnyard Drake wrote:
Mega,

If you have not already, I'd recommend trying loads of bismuth with buffer.

Tom Roster's book on buffered lead/bismuth opened my eyes to what bismuth can really do when the shot is "cushioned" before it comes out of the gun. Next to harder shot (why does everyone love Boss shells-they're copper coated-not washed) buffering can make a world of difference.

A (real) full choke or modified choke, depending on the gun and how it patterns, can provide 60-70%patterns at pass shooting range with bismuth.

If that's all you primarily do, pass shoot, and want to kill more birds, give it a try.

BD


I absolutely use buffer a lot of the time, but not every time. I too have Tom Roster's books, both the bismuth and the lead and bismuth buffered loads. To be honest, I'm not all that impressed. Half the loads are with components you can't get anymore.

In 10 gauge, I currently load only a single load. It is basically straight out of the Lyman shotshell manual, with the substitute of a SAM1 wad in place of the BPD10 wad. I used my Pressure Trace II system to make sure the wad swap was safe. It actually lowered the pressure, and I ended up 1 grain over the book load. With a buffered 2 ounces of B shot, that load is wicked on geese. Unfortunately I am running low on B, and Rotometals is having trouble making it this year. Instead I'm going to try their #0. Their B size is listed as 4.5 mm/ .170". Over the phone I was told their #0 is 4.25mm, but didn't hear the standard size. mathematically that works out to .167", which for all practical purposes is B shot, so I'm not sure what the deal there is. Mathematically 4.5mm is .177". Either way, I don't think it will be a huge difference. I forget what the pattern % was, but it was tighter than you would think. Something like 70% at 50 yards from my Ithaca Mag 10, which the fixed full choke is about .035" constriction.

In 12 gauge, my long range load is a buffered 1 1/2 ounce load in a 3" Federal. This load is a slightly modified load out of the Tom Roster book. This load responds very well to choke. It is only so-so with a modified, but with a full or extra full, it is phenomenal. I even ran it though a turkey choke, although it didn't pattern much tighter than the extra full. This is not a load for close shots

Sometimes you don't need that range though. I've had hit and miss results in 16 gauge. In my Fox B, that gun really needed the buffered loads. I never did like that gun much though. In my 11-48 though, it doesn't seem to matter. I've got 2 barrels for it, but I just can't seem to warm up to the 26" IC barrel. I definitely swing the 28" modified barrel better. In the modified choke barrel, I tried a few different loads, but found that the buffered loads offered almost no advantage. The two best were #1 the 1 1/8 oz buffered bluedot load listed in the Tom Roster book. #2 was the same thing, but without buffer, and more powder, listed in the Lyman shotshell manual. The Buffered load shot something like 72% at 40 yards, and the non-buffered went 69%.

I don't get too hung up on pattern %. In this case, with 1 1/8 oz of #5 bismuth, the pattern is good at 40 yards, probably a bit thin around 45 yards for the small to medium size duck I shoot. That's just fine, as a #5 bismuth at a book listed 1220 fps is running out of steam around 45 yards.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
All times are GMT - 7 Hours

View next topic
View previous topic
Page 1 of 1
16ga.com Forum Index  ~  16ga. Ammunition & Reloading

Post new topic   Reply to topic


 
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB and NoseBleed v1.09