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Bill K
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:48 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2014
Posts: 253
Location: North Shore of Boston

A fun topic ...

Does anybody have any thoughts and or experiences with Darne shotguns ?

The French-made sliding breech-block side by side shotguns.

I’ve been fascinated with them for decades, and every now and then I get a hankering for one.

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Bill K
North of Boston
Browning New A5 Sweet Sixteen circa 2019
Browning Citori Upland 16 GA circa 2014
Darne R10 1962
Browning Sweet Sixteen 16 GA circa 1957
Savage Fox Sterlingworth 16 GA circa 1934
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Swampy16
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:47 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Oct 2019
Posts: 453
Location: New Jersey

Hanker on !
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/darne-shotguns/darne-16-ga-27-quot-barrels.cfm?gun_id=101196900
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Dave in Maine
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:40 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Sep 2010
Posts: 1972
Location: Maine

Where's Ted?

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“A man’s rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.”
Frederick Douglass, November 15, 1867, speech in Williamsport, Pa.
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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:07 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 1480
Location: Mpls, MN.

Thoughts or experience? Imported the guns to the US and Canada for almost two decades, and I’ve probably owned two dozen in all different grades. Handled hundreds of them, here, and in Europe.
If a Darne doesn’t fit you, don’t buy it. You can alter LOP with a pad, but, there is no way to bend the stock, as it has a steel rod running down it. Chokes run tight, barrel wall thickness is usually pretty thick, the guns sometimes have pitted bores. 2 1/2” ammunition isn’t too hard to come up with these days, but, I’ve altered chamber length and advised others to do the same. I lean toward leaving them short these days.
They can run light. Recoil will get your attention with heavier loads. Watch for cracked stocks, breaks and chipping around the inletting of the buttstock, often indicating someone tried to bend the stock, broken trigger return springs on V models (easy amateur gunsmith fix) broken mainsprings on R models ( should have two serrated forks under the sliding breech, up near the breech of the barrels, if one is broken, the gun is useless, NOT an easy fix) pitted bores and blued actions. Darne never blued actions, and you are at the mercy of whoever did the work.

I still own two. Look forward to using them every year.

Good luck.

Best,
Ted

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"Well sir, stupidity isn't technically against the law, and on that note, I'll remove the handcuffs and you are free to go".
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billwolfe
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:20 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 02 Dec 2013
Posts: 13

I will always defer to Ted on matters Darne, but I'll add my two cents. I've owned and shot both main models--the R and the V. Though both are sliding breech, fixed barrel guns of similar appearance, they are fundamentally different mechanisms. A third model, P, was also made and looks very similar to the V but is reputed to be a serious PITA to work on and is probably best avoided.

My beautiful V-21 tends to jam shut unless the shell rims are very thin. Though fairly rare, Geoff Gournet, another former importer, told me the problem is not unique to my gun. It has to do with the enormous strength of the design, the close tolerances at which it was built, and the mechanical linkage between the cocking lever and the sliding breech, which move together in concert. There is plenty of leverage to jam the breech face tight against a thick shell rim when closing the action. When that happens, it takes more hand strength than I possess to open it back up before or after firing.

With the R model, the cocking lever is decoupled from the sliding breech, which has to be pulled backwards manually after the lever is lifted. I've shot a variety of shells in three R-model Darnes and never had a hint of a jamming problem. For that reason alone, I prefer the R model, which was made across the price spectrum from basic field guns on up. The Vs were always and only made as best guns.

Unless damaged or horribly neglected, about any Darne you find will be a strong, reliable (jamming issues aside) gun. Most but not all were made as light, lively upland guns with superb handling qualities. How they managed to attain light overall weight, with mass concentrated between the hands, and robust barrel-wall thickness, I don't know, but they did. As Ted mentioned, options for altering the stock are limited, so it's important to find one that fits as is. For reasons I don't understand, they seem to fit me (and apparently others too) with somewhat longer LOP than other guns. All the examples I've handled have had reasonably modern dimensions with LOP at least 14 inches and drops within a quarter inch or so of 2.5 at heel and 1.5 at comb with little cast off. Doubtless some exist with very short stocks and excessive drops and cast.

More than one shooter has found issue with Darne safety mechanisms. I've shot Darnes with three distinct safeties, all mounted on the side of the action. The standard safety on the V model is a "button" located above the triggers and below the sliding breech block on the left side of the action. Its operation is opposite that of the standard top-tang safety most of us know and love: push forward for safe, pull back to fire. In practice, that works fine for me. The rounded top of the breech block makes for a more comfortable right-hand hold (I'm right handed) than any top-lever gun, and my thumb rests comfortably on the forward edge of the safety button. Mounting the gun naturally involves pulling the thumb back, so the safety can be readily disengaged in the act of mounting.

The standard R safety is a "lever" located above the triggers on the sliding breech block. Most I've seen are on the left, but I understand they can be moved to either side of the action. The lever pivots on an axis oriented left-right (or right-left) across the block. On my pre-war R-14, "safe" is with the lever pointing down, and "fire" is with the lever pointing forward, so disengaging the safety involves rotating the lever in a forward direction. I find this easy enough but need to make it a distinct action separate from and prior to mounting the gun. I'm thinking of having the lever moved to the right side of the action to be disengaged by a forward movement of the trigger finger during the mount. I've tried this with my left hand with and without gloves and it seems to work well.

A third safety, patented in the 1920s and quickly discarded until revived by US importers in the 60s and 70s is a push bolt traversing the breech block above the triggers. In both examples I've handled, the safety is engaged pushing the bolt left to right and disengaged right to left. As a right handed shooter, I find this far less satisfactory that either of the other mechanisms. The bolt is a small target for one's trigger finger, and, for me at least, trying to find and push that bolt when a partridge or woodcock is flushing in thick cover does nothing to improve my gun mount.

It's worth noting that there are numerous knockoffs by other companies, including Regis Darne's son Francisque Darne, about which little can be said with any confidence. Many routinely appear for sale as "Darne" guns by sellers who either don't know better or are misrepresenting their wares. I'd avoid any sliding breech gun (except maybe a Charlin) that does not carry the mark "Darne" on the top lever, and barrel flats. There have also been variations in quality (fit and finish but not strength and reliability) over the years, with the best quality made before 1939 and after 1978. The low point, except for the higher V grades, is represented by guns made for the US market between the early 60s and 1978. The imported R models often have serial number starting with SPC. Current new guns are made and sold as exclusive luxury items costing at least as much as I'm paying to replace the siding on my house.

Hope this helps!

Bill
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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:10 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 1480
Location: Mpls, MN.

Bill,
Good to see you posting!

I’ve owned a few V grade guns, and I believe the thick rim issue is fairly rare. None of mine, perhaps half a dozen of them, suffered that issue. I would think Mr. Vicknair could work it down to be less of an issue.
Getting qualified people to work on the guns is a challenge, and not improving as time goes by.
SPC and SPL are serial number prefixes, that represent “Special barrel length short” and “Special barrel length long”. Guns so marked cannot be accurately dated by the serial number, as they were built out of sequence.
Don’t dismiss Francisque Darne guns out of hand! I have seen some dandies, the quality on the earlier guns was off the charts. They typically come cheaper, and can be a great buy, if they fit.
I actually prefer R grade guns, but, that is a blonde/brunette type thing, and most guys have to come to their own decision on that. I do own both types R and V at the moment. A Charlin is a different kind of beast, I find the leaf spring that tensions the safety to be almost unbearable to actually use. But, they are well made, reliable guns.
Bill, any idea where that old Halifax might be? That was a neat old gun!

Best,
Ted

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"Well sir, stupidity isn't technically against the law, and on that note, I'll remove the handcuffs and you are free to go".
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billwolfe
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:55 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 02 Dec 2013
Posts: 13

Hi Ted,

It's been a busy 18 months! Retirement, selling one house and buying another and moving 1200 miles from Nashville to Vermont's Northeast Kingdom. House needed a new well and new siding. New foundation planned for next year. After that it should be good for a few years! I've been waiting 40 years to be someplace where I could walk out the door and pot a rabbit or pattern a shotgun and finally made it! Plus my favorite nephew, his lovely wife, and two boys (1 & 4 years) are down the road.

I still have the Halifax. It is a neat old gun--so original and so atypical in its forward-balance handling qualities. I'm glad you found it and brought it back to life!
If you ever want it back, just let me know; otherwise I'll hang onto it. Been hoping to find a dairy farmer with a pigeon problem but no luck yet. I'll bet that Halifax would be great as a casual pigeon gun with an ounce of 7s!

Thanks for clearing up the SP nomenclature for me! Now it makes sense-my R-15 20 with 65-cm barrels is SPCXXX C for court) and the V21 with 75-cm tubes is SPLXXX (L for longue). I wouldn't scorn a Francisque, I just don't know much about them, and it would be a rare GI seller that could describe one adequately. I've been tempted a couple times by a Charlin but remembered your comments about the stiff safety. I'm old enough not to need to make anything harder than it needs to be.

Hope you and your family are keeping well!

Best as always,

Bill
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canvasback
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:09 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 684
Location: Ontario

Hey Bill,

I'll chime in as well. Good to see you posting and hope you are well.

James

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1921 Pieper 29" 6 lbs 10 oz
2003 Citori White Lightning 26" 6 lbs 10 oz
1932 Husqvarna 310AS 29.5" 6 lbs 7 oz
1925 Ferlach 29" 6 lbs 7 oz
1923 Greifelt 29" 6 lbs 1 oz
1928 Simson 29.5" 6 lbs
1893 Lindner Daly FW 28” 5 lb 11oz
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stevesavage
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:50 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Apr 2017
Posts: 150

Having wanted a Darne for a few years this was great information. There is some info about Darnes on the internet but not very much. I would like to know more about the safeties and which model is best for use with modern shells. 16 gauge info preferred. Thanks
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stevesavage
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:51 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Apr 2017
Posts: 150

Having wanted a Darne for a few years this was great information. There is some info about Darnes on the internet but not very much. I would like to know more about the safeties and which model is best for use with modern shells. 16 gauge info preferred. Thanks
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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:07 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 1480
Location: Mpls, MN.

I actually have a lot of time in on the triggers on that Halifax, Bill. It taught me a lot, I wish you could have pulled them when I got that gun.

Congrats on your new living arrangements and location, Bill. Glad to hear things are good. I need a few more years of steady employment before I can think about retiring.

The Halifax. Hmm. I wouldn’t mind it back, do you need a deer rifle or a revolver?

The Darne safety thing is something a guy has to work out on his own. Any modern Darne that had Triple proof applied (three sets of crossed palms) can use modern ammunition. Guns with 3” chambers are not proofed any higher then triple proof, it is as stout as proof gets.
The guns we typically see are old R models, usually pretty beat up. It is hard to get the chance to use different versions. Another thing to keep in mind is the guns are no longer produced, Herve’ Bruchet has retired, and repairs and parts are getting tougher to pull off. I had a sling made in France for my 28 gauge V19, and fitted here in the states. Not sure it is even possible at this point in time.
Don’t be afraid to ask questions before you lay out cash.

Best,
Ted

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"Well sir, stupidity isn't technically against the law, and on that note, I'll remove the handcuffs and you are free to go".
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Dave in Maine
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:26 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Sep 2010
Posts: 1972
Location: Maine

Ted Schefelbein wrote:
... Don’t be afraid to ask questions before you lay out cash.

Best,
Ted


Some of the best advice you'll see anywhere, anytime.

_________________
“A man’s rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.”
Frederick Douglass, November 15, 1867, speech in Williamsport, Pa.
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Bill K
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:03 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2014
Posts: 253
Location: North Shore of Boston

I very much appreciate the responses to this forum - everything I could possibly want to know about Darne shotguns and then some.

The most important thing I learned was Darne shotguns are not to be bought sight unseen, or rather unhandled or put to your shoulder.

_________________
Bill K
North of Boston
Browning New A5 Sweet Sixteen circa 2019
Browning Citori Upland 16 GA circa 2014
Darne R10 1962
Browning Sweet Sixteen 16 GA circa 1957
Savage Fox Sterlingworth 16 GA circa 1934
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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:55 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 1480
Location: Mpls, MN.

Bill K wrote:
I very much appreciate the responses to this forum - everything I could possibly want to know about Darne shotguns and then some.

The most important thing I learned was Darne shotguns are not to be bought sight unseen, or rather unhandled or put to your shoulder.


Not unless you can send them back.

Not just Darne guns. I have nothing to do with auctions I’m not at, for any guns, either. Too many ways to get skinned.

Best,
Ted

_________________
"Well sir, stupidity isn't technically against the law, and on that note, I'll remove the handcuffs and you are free to go".
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nj gsp
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:55 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 437
Location: WI

Ted Schefelbein wrote:

Not unless you can send them back.

Not just Darne guns. I have nothing to do with auctions I’m not at, for any guns, either. Too many ways to get skinned.

Best,
Ted


I've purchased I think around 4-5 guns through GunBroker in the last year or so that all were exactly as described and have worked and functioned flawlessly.
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