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double vision
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:30 pm  Reply with quote
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Winchester Polyformed hulls are Cheddites, right?

It's been so long since I've reloaded Winchester/Cheddite hulls that I just want to make sure I have it straight. I see data on Hodgdon's and our Yahoo database for these hulls, and I have a nice stash I want to load up for specialty hunting loads.
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:42 pm  Reply with quote



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Dave,

Yes the Winchester hulls are Cheddites.

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double vision
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:52 pm  Reply with quote
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Thanks, Mark. I was hoping you'd see this.
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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:01 pm  Reply with quote
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Dave, Not to throw a monkey wrench into the works, but Hodgdon, was publishing loads for what they called "Winchester-Western polyformed hulls" long before Olin started using the Cheddites we see today. Those original "polyformeds" were simply plastic versions of the old Winchester-Western paper hulls of the '50's -- same construction -- paper basewads with the famous inverted waxed paper cup under the powder -- same capacities, same brass case heads and headstamps -- all the same except for plastic tubes instead of paper. Hodgdon's name for that type of hull was to distinguish it from the concurrently made W-W compression-formed hull. Old cheaper "white box" Winchester-Western shells still used that straight walled "polyformed" hull into the '80's I think. I had a whole bunch of them in 20 gauge I bought new at Target in the late '80's. (Target!? -- It seems impossible that once upon a time not so long ago ammo was on the shelves at Target stores and guns were sold over their counters!) The Western Super-X and Winchester SuperSpeeds were high brass and had low internal base wads with greater capacity for the heavy loads found in them, and the Western X-Perts and Winchester Rangers had low brass and were higher inside for their lighter loads. You probably don't have any of those, as they are pretty old -- I probably do. In fact however, I have seen photos of some boxes of loaded shells that would have those hulls either for sale on this site, or as a show of someone's inventory, so those hulls are still "out there". They are also distinguishable by the general use on them of the same fairly ugly 6-point crimp used on most of the CF 6-point hulls -- the one with the "swirly seal" in the middle that results in the little "nips" in mouths of the fired hulls. Loaded too many times, this type of hull will shed that little inverted under-powder paper cup, which might lodge in a barrel and cause a bulge. Those hulls are some of the worst out there for reloading, and they don't "age" well in storage either. Only load them if you are desperate and/or careful.

Anyway, if you use an old Hodgdon manual when loading Cheddite Winchesters, those loads might be for those old paper base-wad hulls and you might have load height/capacity issues. If you do have the old hulls, then you might want the older loading books. No, I do not know when Olin discontinued their "old" original "polyformed" hulls; neither do I know when Hodgdon recognized that, nor whether they changed the loads in their publications, nor when, but it must have been later than Olin's discontinuance. I am currently 1800 miles from my old Hodgdon load manuals, so I cannot check. If I recall correctly, Hodgdon never made a distinction between those hulls in their terminology after Olin went to the Euro-hulls, adding to the confusion. Possibly Hodgdon's thinking was that it doesn't make a safety difference, and its up to the user to solve all "fit issues" anyway.

Now of course, the Western brand seems to be gone, leaving only Winchester, and current stuff is in Cheddite hulls, and has been for quite a while, with internals the same low height whether the "brass" is high or low -- same capacities. I used to think all those 16 gauge shells that came in the silver boxes were Cheddites until 16GaugeGuy set me straight. Some of the earlier silver-boxed "Euro-hull" Winchester ammo used a different brand of hull than Cheddite. I think they were Martignoni's (NobelSport) or something similar. Somewhere on this forum 16GG posted pictures of them. He sent me some of the empties for comparison - said the boxes were labeled as loaded in Australia. Since they are more recent, it is more likely one could encounter them, and while they are quite easy to distinguish from the Cheddite Winchesters because of differences in labeling, color and texture, internally they are very similar to them, so you will not likely go wrong with the loads published recently by Hodgdon or others.

Cheers!
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double vision
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:21 am  Reply with quote
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Tony, thanks for the info. These are the Cheddites, but I knew the Martignoni hulls were out there and I wanted to be sure. The Hodgdon data I'm referring to is on their website. That said, I'm eyeballing a couple loads on the Yahoo database using these hulls, Unique, and either the Z16 or SG16. I intend to try both wads and see how they pattern. Hoping the stack height is good without much fiddling needed.
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readgriff
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:47 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 06 Jun 2008
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Are these shells same as cheddite
Winchester Dove and Quail
Thanks
Dave Read


Last edited by readgriff on Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:37 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
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IF you are lucky enough to have the polyformed Winchester hulls from Italy (Martignoni), those are fantastic hulls. They are much tougher than the original CF hulls.

Even though the Martignoni hulls aren't exactly like the Cheddite hulls, the differences are very minor and I use the data interchangeably between the two.

I don't have as many of the Martignoni as I would like, but the ones I do have are on their 7th firing and there isn't a crack, pinhole or any evidence they are ready to give up. The crimp folds are hardly even dirty. I have been using them for my buffered Bismuth loads.

Fired seven times, and they were used for testing once for published data and 3 times for my personal stuff. plus fired 2 more times. The only light load was the original load. The rest of the firings have all been hunting loads of some kind.

If you look close at the hull on the left you can see the transducer marks just above the '1'.





They are easliy my favorite 16 gauge hull. I wish I had 1,000 more of them.

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Savage16
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:35 am  Reply with quote
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I have never seen or had any that say upland game like yours Mark. Mine all have the Super x symbol.
And no I don't see a "transducer mark", even with my cheaters on Crying or Very sad

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MSM2019
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:36 am  Reply with quote



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If you click on the photo it will enlarge it you will see them.

These things are about 20 years old.

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Dave In AZ
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:14 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
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This is more interesting than I expected heh...
I am going to dig out my 1980 to 2000 Win ammo and hulls and take some pics, let you guys tell me if any is interesting. I mostly did win CF and Rem black and green hulls back then, and all Herco hunting loads, 9/8 oz of 6 or 7.5s mostly. For walking up dove with 40yd shots.
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4setters
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:24 pm  Reply with quote
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Max Smoke and MSM19 gave a lot of good information on Winchester Poly-formed shotgun hulls--a very good write up that I intended to thank them for several days ago. At the time I read it, I started to comment, but ran in to an issue that made me back out of my reply (more on that later). I was aware (at least I though I was aware) of one other Win Poly formed hull that I thought Winchester actually made in 16 gauge, just after they ceased production of the CF Dove and Quail loads in the late 90s (?).

I left for a visit to the farm for the last four days, so I've just now seen the most recent comment about Win Poly's Martignoni hull from Mark. That's them!

As I stated before, I thought (probably in error) that Win actually made these, but got confused when I saw a foreign language on one flap (which I thought must be French or Italian), so I backed out of commenting at the time.

Anyway, I bought a flat of the pictured Win Poly's below about ten years ago. I wanted then for the hulls (not for the high velocity 6s!), as they exhibit an 8 star crimp that is almost identical to the CF Dove and Quail hulls, which are my favorite. (In fact, externally, they look almost identical to Dove and Quail shells, except for very fine longitudinal ribs on the hulls).

I don't have much experience loading these hulls yet, but they have done great on 1st and 2nd loadings. Beautiful!

Please excuse the poor pic.

Thanks guys!



[url=https://flic.kr/p/2kjxokm] [/url]WinHulls by Michael Widner, on Flickr

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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 1:45 pm  Reply with quote
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Hmm . . . Those sure look like compression-formed hulls. I have not seen any of Winchester's polyformed hulls with 8-point crimps (though there are both 6 and 8 point crimps on compression-formd hulls). Check inside and see what the base of the hull looks like. Look at it in good light, and then feel its shape with a screwdriver. If it is a smooth bottom of the same color as the hull and has no detectable abrupt transition, but instead curves nicely, the hull wall thickening almost parabolically, all the way to the primer area, it is a compression-formed hull - a one-piece unit, compression/injection molded into its metal base.

I know for a while Winchester used the compression-formed hull in their lower price-point "Upland" loads in the 12 and 20. I presume they did that in 16's, too. I'm pretty sure I still have some. They loaded the low price-point stuff with conventional wads, and not a one-piece plastic wad-and-cup unit. Usually there is a cut-away depiction of the whole shotshell assembly on the side of the box. My guess is the shot was the lower cost stuff, too -- of lower antimony content. Such shells were not Mark 5 either (with the simple plastic shot protection wrap/sleeve). They used the Mark 5 designation and construction in the premium-priced shells.

The only plastic wad units Winchester Western (Olin) used were of the AA type, until they started using the Euro-hulls (Martignoni? and Cheddite) and then I suppose in those hulls, the plastic wad units are probably by the same manufacturer as the hulls. Can you let us know what wadding is used in those shells you have pictured? Thanks.

Tony
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:19 pm  Reply with quote



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MaximumSmoke,

The hulls below are polyformed and are the hulls from Italy......and yeah they are 8 pt. crimp and the one in the center is a reload and no I am not trying to be a smart-a**.


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4setters
PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:44 pm  Reply with quote
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Tony (and Mark),

Well, I got beat to the punch, and wasted two PRESCIOUS best-hulls-ever Winchester 16 gauge empty/loaded shells!! I did not cut open two CF hulls for comparison, or it would have been four!!!!

The upland "Martignoni" hulls I pictured in my post above, have been opened up by Mark and now me, see pics below. I opened a live round when I first bought these shells about ten years ago to see if they were indeed CF hulls, and came to the conclusion that they were not--they are identical in shot wrapper, fiber wads, 8 star crimp, etc. to CF "Dove and Quail" loads (and to all CF loads, including old Upland, Mark 5, etc, except for the crimp) in that respect--but are two piece straight-walled poly-formed hulls, rather than CF hulls.

I suspect that, based on the same fiber wads and shot wrapper being used in these loads as Winchester used all the way back to the 60s, that they were indeed loaded by Winchester, possibly in European hulls.

From all I can tell, Winchester did use WAA16 plastic wads in CF hulls during the 90s, but only for a few years. I saw very few of them in the 90s or have since. Almost all of the CF hulls were loaded with fiber wads and shot wrappers for decades best I can tell.

Anyway, there is probably more to this story . . . . . . .

Mike



[url=https://flic.kr/p/2kjPxNT] [/url]WinCut by Michael Widner, on Flickr

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16 gauges:
1954 Win M12 IC
1952 Ithaca M37 Mod
1955 Browning Auto-5 Mod
1940 Ithaca NID M/F
1959 Beretta Silver Hawk
Ranger 103-II M/F
Browning A-5 Sweet 16
Browning Citori Invector
Rem 870 Remchoke
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:54 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
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Location: Central ND

4setters,

Just look on the box, if they were made in Italy it will say that on the box. I have one of those boxes around here somewhere. If I find it I will post a pic.

I never opened one of those factory hulls up. Thanks for the pic!! The sacrifice wasn't in vain!

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