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Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

It may come as a surprise to the "1 1/4 oz in a 16 gauge" guys that inhabit this board, but, there exist English and continental 10s that are specific upland guns, usually weighing less than 8 1/2 lbs, and utilizing the 10 gauge standard 2 7/8 chamber length loading. I don't own a ten, but, a good friend uses, on very special occasions, a Durs Egg 10 gauge precussion double fowler. It was converted from flint (someone saved the flint parts, if you can believe that) and weighs just under 8 lbs. The load he uses is about 1 1/8 oz, which is very efficient in a ten gauge. Using a front stuffer puts a fresh perspective on bird hunting, that is for sure. I'm pretty sure if 16 gauge guy sold everything he owned, and I tossed a 'coupla my guns in, we could buy the thing, it is that valuable. I like a 16 as much as the next guy, but, given the choice of a Japanese Citori or, this exceptional English gun, I would gladly use and enjoy a day with the 10, even for woodcock. This particular gun predates the concept of choked barrels.

Funny thing is, were I to own a ten, I'd use lighter loads in it than some here use in their 12s, or 16s. Shotshell load efficiency, is a concept lost on more than a few, it would seem.

The 3 1/2 magnum ten is the odd version of the ten, and has very little going for it as an upland gun or loading. And when one mentions ten gauge, one can spot the amatuers in the upland pursuits rather quickly, as they assume that it is automatically the 3 1/2 ten that you are talking about. No amatuers here though, right?
Best,
Ted

I'm a history buff. Have been for some time now. I'm also fortunate to live near Boston, MA, a city filled with colleges and universities equipped with excellent libraries and archives.

I've done a bit of research about the muzzleloading percussion gun era in England and America. Durs Egg was Swiss, and a noted London lock maker, one of the finest flint lock makers in all of Europe. His locks were noted for their dependability and relatively short lock time as far as dependablity and short lock time can be applied to any flint ignited gun. His locks were used to make the finest dueling pistols in Europe during his time. However, even the quickest firing flinters made hitting a flying bird iffy at best. The change from flint to percussion that was made on the gun you mention speaks for itself in this matter.

Wingshooting as we know it today began in earnest with the advent of percussion locks and patent breech systems. The almost instant and very consistant lock times the resulting improved percussion ignition system provided made taking birds on the wing a very possible and therefore a popular and pleasurable method.

10 gauge guns, even in the flintlock and percussion lock muzzleloading era, were rarely considered or employed as an upland gun. The 10 through 8 gauge bores were more commonly a long, one barreled gun employed as a hand held, shoulder mounted waterfowling piece or as a shorter barreled stalking gun for bigger furred game with what we now call buck shot. 10 gauge guns were not commonly employed for flushed game or driven bird hunting. They were designed to shoot stationary or slower moving, swimming waterfowl with bigger shot than was commonly used for upland birds and for running rabbit or hare.

Some lighter weight, shorter barreled 10 gauge guns were made. However, the 12 and 14 gauge percussion double guns were far more common and popular. Swinging an 8-1/2 pound gun on quick flying birds is still more of a task than a pleasure for the average hunter even today. The more reasonable to handle 7-1/4 pound and lighter doubles with longer and better patterning 32 to 34 inch barrels were the choice of most English gentlemen shooters by the time the common methods of taking feathered upland game with percussion doubles evolved.

Percussion gun era shooters had methods available to them for taking game at the longer ranges. The effects of a choked bore on shot patterns was recognised even then and had been as far back as the 16th century. However, the difficulty of ramming a wad past the choke and getting it to seal the breech end of the bore over the powder made choked barrels unpopular and uncommon. Some of the better barrel makers could lap and polish a slight and fairly even taper into a bore from breech to muzzle, but that is about as far as it usually went. What the shooters of the time did use was cased shot. These shot cartridges were made of rolled paper, fabric, or fine woven wire cups that were designed to rupture at fairly predictable distances from the muzzle. The longest range ones were said to have been effective past 80 yards, but were used for shooting at small rafts of swimming waterfowl and not for wing shooting.

The common method of regulating patterns in a parallel bored barrel was to employ bigger shot and more of it over an equal volume of black powder. these one to one ratio loads of powder to shot in equal volumes used a well constructed wad column of pressed paper with a greased felt wad sandwiched between. The wads were carefully cut to closely fit the bore with accurate wad cutters usually provided with the gun. A well designed load of the proper sized shot was effective to 40 or so yards for reliably take flying game attyhe hands of an accomplished wingshot. These more effective, harder hitting patterns were of course, possible only out of the best barrels available. Hence the phrase best gun came to be used for shotguns that could reliably kill at longer than average ranges.

the same physical laws that govern the effectiveness of round shot holds just as true today as then. Round shot has not changed much since it was first developed. If a shooter wants more effective killing power at longer ranges, he must use bigger shot and more of it.

Wingshooting as we know it today has not changed much in 180 years. Guns and ammo have improved. Certainly fixed ammo and breech loaders have made the game easier. One man alone with one breech loading double can put up a more rapid and sustained rate of fire than a gentleman armed with a pair of percussion guns and his gun handler ever could. Choked barrels have improved patterns and have made taking flying game with less shot per load at longer ranges entirely practical. The plastic wad cup does today what the old cased shot loads did back then to a certain extent and have improved patterns even more. Smokeless powder has made higher velocities possible in not always practical.

The end result is that we can commonly use smaller bores today to get the same results obtained only with bigger bores and more shot even just 50 years ago, let alone a century or more. But air density and lead round shot ballistics have remained the same. You can't change these two factors no matter how hard you try. So bigger lead shot is needed for each pellet to retain more hitting power and to penetrate better at longer ranges than smaller shot. #4 shot remains more effective than #5 shot or #6 shot at any equal range or velocity. It also retains its velocity and energy longer and further out too. It just plain kills more effectively regardless of anyone's opinon to the contrary. Is it needed for pheasant? That depends on the pheasant, the range, and the conditions. Often it is not, but sometimes it is. An accomplished and knowledgeable wingshot knows when those times are and uses it then.

PS: Ted, I can remember you posting over a year ago that the 16 is no better than the 3" 20 gauge for all intents and purposes, because the 1-1/4 ounce 3" 20 ga. magnum makes it the equal of the 16. I of course disagree with this. I know the 16 bore handles 1-1/4 ounce load and #5 and #4 lead shot much better and much more effectively than any 20 gauge gun. However, I'd like to know why now are you having such trouble accepting the use of 1-1/4 ounce shot loads in the 16?

PPS: Is it the guns or the people that make them the reason why you don't like Japanese guns?

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

I'm pretty sure I said the 16 is no better with modern components than a 20-I have never been a believer in the 3" 20, or the 3" 12, or 3 1/2" 10 for that matter. Decent components in the 20 (with its plain old 7/8 oz load) make it perform like granddad's turn of the century 16 with an oz. Simple fact. Not ignored by the ammunition makers, either.

What I believe in has little to do with what people buy, or use for that matter. Hence, you can buy all kinds of 20 gauge loadings at Walmart, and only one 16. I have seen some buffered 3" 20 loads that were impressive at the patterning board, but, not impressive enough to cause me to give up the 16. I'm no fan of recoil, so heavy loads in typically light 20s or 16s aren't my thing.

The part you didn't consider in the use of the ten in Europe, is the variety of game animals pursued on a typical day afield. The list could be pretty extensive, with hares, swans, roe deer, hickory grouse, ducks, fox, or, if one was very lucky, capercallie on the list. Until WELL into the 20th century, the ten gauge double was considered supreme for this type of hunting, with a load of fine birdshot in one barrel, and a heavier load, or pumpkin ball in the other. I have seen quite a few old 2 7/8 chamber 10 gauge guns in Europe that could only be called game guns, with straight English stocks, splinter forends, and nicely balanced handling qualities. They are a little heavier than a 16, but, easily compare with, say, a modern Remington 1100. Yes, I would prefer to hunt with the 10 over the 1100.

My problem with the 1 1/4 oz loading in the 16, is the simple fact the 12 handles it so much better, and the typical 12 is more robust, and far more often designed for the heavier load. Quite a few of the 16s one will encounter are very old, and came from an era when most people knew better than to use 10 gauge loads in them. Sure, you use a steel receiver Ithaca 16-lets talk about the head of its trim stock, and what those 1 1/4 oz loads could be doing to it. I promise you, you are doing no light 16 a favor by loading it with that heavy a load. Put that load in a 12 gauge, or, better yet, a 10 gauge, where it belongs. It will pattern better there, anyway. More on that.

Sure, a number 4 shot is lethal. The problem, noted by many writers and ballisticians over the decades is getting conventional, lead loads to pattern decently with # 4 shot. This problem is worsened, not improved, when a heavier than standard loading is used, say, 1 1/4 oz in a 16 bore. The extra pellets in the load don't have a larger bore to fill up, so they stack on top of it. Inertia at the shot cause the extra weight on top of the load to flatten and distort the pellets at the bottom. These now non spherical pellets quickly drop out of the pattern. The plastic shot cups that do so much to improve the pattern with the standard weight charge are much less effective with a heavier shot charge. Simple fact.

Believe me, patterning a 1 1/4 oz lead load in a 16 is a disappointment. Perhaps you believe the 1 1/4 oz load patterns well in a 16, but, that is only because you have never seen the pattern of 1 1/4 oz out of a 10-there is no comparison. They make those 16 gauge loads because people will buy them. Ammunition companies understand that Americans have a weakness for "bigger is better".

As the engineers say, "There is no free lunch". Every engineering solution has a drawback that must not be ignored. Why folks persist in thinking more pellets in a load is something for nothing, I will never understand. More often than not, these heavy loads don't pattern as well as even the standard load at typical hunting ranges. Learn the effective range of ones gun with it's proper load, and improve ones hunting skill to close that range is much better advice than stuffing the gun with a load it isn't designed for. Bigger, sometimes, is just bigger, not better.

Some of the new non-toxic shot have improved this. They don't distort, and will remain round, and in the pattern. I have seen steel shot patterns that are incredible, but, I don't use steel unless forced to, and then only in a modern pump designed for it (maybe I should say a pump I don't care about!) I'm sure there are things like the tungsten matrix shots that will change what we know about hunting loads, but, plain old lead works well enough if one understands how to use it.

The Japanese build superb motorcycles. I have a few. Nothing really compares. For my tastes, and handicaps (lefthanded, for one) the Japanese guns are not in league with just about anything else from Europe. I don't care for the high gloss stock finish, the 24 inch barrels with schnabble forend, the deer head stamped on a shotgun, hot blue, or, worst of all, the single triggers found on the very great majority of them. Don't even get me started on the BPS. When I am at a gunshow, I can spot a Japanese gun in a display from a good 25 feet. You can too, I'm sure. They have a look about them, and, that look just leaves me cold. Nothing against the Japanese. I love my 750GSXR. Just not their guns.

You, of course, are free to like whatever you want. Including those "great big loads" that turn the sweet little 16 gauge we love into a kicking witch with no useful mprovement over the performance of the 12.
Best,
Ted

I don't consider 1-1/4 ounce of shot a "great big load." I do consider it a maximum load in the 16 gauge. Somehow, I think you are getting the impression I use them all the time. I use them only when conditions warrant their use. I think I've made that point repeatedly. Using a heavy load when a lighter, more conservative one is more than sufficient is not wise. However, using a load not up to the task is even worse IMO.

These 1-1/4 ounce heavy or magnum 16 ga. loads extend the ballistic capability of the 16. they allow it to approach the effectiveness a 12 gauge standard load, just as you have pointed out how a heavy modern 20 ga load now approaches the effectiveness of a 16 ga. standard load. Or have I misunderstood your point regarding the 20 ga? What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander I should think.

The end result is more versatility. I think you like the idea of a 10 ga. double for its versitility. Why not a 16 within its range of effective uses? I really like the idea that I can carry a light, responsive 16 ga. gun which also has the capability of cleanly taking the largest of our upland birds as far out as I can reliably hit them and under the worst conditions I'd care to hunt in. I've pretty much stopped carrying a 12 gauge gun, because I don't need to any more. Why lug the added weight.

I also have not had a problem getting effective patterns with 1-1/4 ounce handloads. I use good quality extra hard Lawrence Magnum #4 shot and have adjusted the pressure, the velocity, and the amount of choke until it all came together. I have gotten the #4 pellets to flow through the bore as well as they can.

I also use a Herter's 1-1/4 ounce wad with a shot cup big enough to contain 90% of the shot load. These wads have not been available for years. I lucked into a 500 count bag several years back. They do a much better job of protecting the shot than any 1 or 1-1/8 ounce wad can.

I also had a Browning Invector full tube opened up to .022" points of choke. My loads using a Herter's 1-1/4 ounce capacity wad and Blue Dot produce very evenly distributed patterns at 35 to 45 yards without any holes big enough for a pheasant to fly through. These loads have proven to be more than sufficiently effective for my occasional need of them. I don't think anyone can argue that a Citori is not up to the task of handling these loads either. It has a very good record of ruggedness and reliability in a nice handling package.

Some folks have also gotten excellent results from the Federal 16 ga. 1-1/4 ounce magnum loads. So I'm certainly not alone in using these heavy loads occasionally. As you say, each to his own in finding what works for his needs. Merry Christmas Ted.

Joined: 03 Jul 2005 Posts: 370 Location: Amarillo, Texas

Hi 16GG

Congrats on the Superlight 16.

Before I started fiddling with 28 gauges and then old shotguns my field gun was Browning superlight feather 12. I still have it. It is very well made and weighs 6lbs 4oz. I shot it well (for me) and am very much an admirer of both Browning series - Superposed and Citori.

Mike

Amen to that Mike. My previous go to upland gun is a just under 7 lb. Citori Superlight 12 w/ 26" barrels, which I still have. It has resided in its case unused for most of this last decade since I discovered the Citori 16 ga. It's the one I mentioned that started this whole discussion on 1-1/4 ounce 16 ga loads all over again. Rolling Eyes

I used to occasionally load #4, 1-1/2 ounce thumpers for heavy upland duties. Now there is a load that will get your attention in a hurry out of a light gun. no need now. My 16 ga gun has that well covered with the 1-1/4 ounce loads.

I also am a big fan of the 28 ga for light to moderate upland shooting. I use a range of loads from 5/8 oz right up to 1 oz and everything from #8 to #6 shot. Between the 16 and the 28, I've got all the upland shooting bases covered very nicely with some overlap in the middle. I've taken my share of pheasant with the 28 and my 1 ounce thumpers on bluebird days and for preserve birds. I don't think there is a better grouse gauge on the planet. Its also more than enough for quail too and a fine gun for pass shooting dove inside of 35 yards. It is also my favorite skeet gauge after the .410.

I can't remember the last time I fielded a 20 gauge gun. They are like the 12, unneeded now. Anyway, it sounds like we share common ground on our choice of gauges. Merry Christmas Mike.

Joined: 03 Jul 2005 Posts: 370 Location: Amarillo, Texas

And a merry Christmas to you too!

Mike

All this discussion about chokes & gages reminds me that a good session at the pattern board with a cylinder bored muzzleloader, followed by a few rounds with a chocked muzzleloader is both educational and humbling.

Hope everyone has a Merry Christmas and a fine Christmas afternoon hunt.

rayb

Joined: 03 Jul 2005 Posts: 370 Location: Amarillo, Texas

Hi Ted:

Champlin Arms has a an 1883 Purdey 10 gauge that weighs 7 lbs even. It has 30" Damascus barrels and is certainly a candidate for an upland 10 gauge. The original 2-7/8'' chambers have been lengthened to 3-1/2".

http://www.champlinarms.com/Default.aspx?tabid=30&mid=345&ctl=GunsDetails&StyleID=10&GunID=269

Happy Holidays!

Mike

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

Who was the fool who opened a 7 lb 10 gauge DAMASCUS guns set of barrels to 3 1/2"?

That is even dumber than using the 2 7/8" 10 gauge load in a 16....
Best,
Ted

Besides, its hard to get them to chamber. What did you use Ted, a mallet? Laughing

RayB, it never ceases to amaze me how nicely a well made frontstuffer with no choke can pattern if its loaded with a well balanced load. These guns were designed to shoot a certain amount of shot extremely well and were effective to past 35 yards and sometimes even further. The idea of a square load, a shot column as high as it is wide, started during the advent of these fine percussion guns.

I'm not referring to some of the modern replica black powder doubles that have been foisted off as shotguns. Scatterguns is more like it. One look down the bores of most of these clunkers will tell you all you need to know. I can understand that you can't buy a fine percussion double anywhere near as cheap as one of these modern interpretations. I doubt I could afford one considering the amount of hand labor involved. A well made, but plain grade would still be over 4K or more today, so I'll probably never own one. Originals can be bought for less, but getting one with perfect bores is nie impossible and would cost even more. Most of these old guns were left to rust aftre breech loaders were available. Some were converted. Most went to scrap. What a shame. They were works of art.

I've had the pleasure of holding a couple of well maintained originals and shooting a well crafted crafted recreations of an English percussion double fowling piece with 32 to 34 inch barrels. It balanced, swung, and shot about as good as a modern double. The tubes on these fine guns were bored and polished to perfection. That is the secret. Well made barrels make the gun, then and now. Nothing has changed except the techniques, but good barrels are still the heart and soul of a good shotgun.

The bores of these long tubes are straight from about a bit more than the half way mark and very slightly tapered to the muzzle. This taper is not considered choke but an easement to seating the wad as it picks up fouling on the way down to the breech. There is probably no more than a thousanth or two difference from breech to muzzle. It is was accomplished by lapping from the breech end forward in steps, then a final polish to smooth it all out. This is very time comsuming, but the end result is a prefectly round, smoth bore with no tight or wide spots and no roughness to abrade the shot and wad or retain fouling. A Smoothly finished bore allows the wad to strip the fouling in one pass and allows the shot column to smoothly fly up the bore without any extra vibration or stress. The extra length of the tube also helps stabilize the shot into a nice string which does not spread as fast as a column from a shorter or rougher barrel.

The wad column is made up of a greased felt wad sandwiched between two card wads. The force of firing the gun causes the wad column to compress and seal the gases behind it very well. It also cushions the shot from the sudden acceleration. A oversized, stiff, thin card wad is placed over the shot. This card wad must fit very snugly. If both barrels were to be fired in rapid succession, a looser over shot card would allow recoil to cause the shot column to move forward with the danger of a swollen or burst barrel. The trick to seating these oversized overshot card wads is to put a very slight bend or curve in them, insert them edgewise on, then smoothly push them into the bore until well past the half way mark without flipping them face up. The rammer face would then be used to flip them flat by a sudden tap and then tightly seat them flush on the shot. It works to perfection if done right.

Loading these guns properly is a skill nearly as important as good shooting. A good gun handler/ loader was essential to a gentleman shooter of the day and was concidered to be very skilled laborer and a man of some stature within the hierarchy of the working and servant class. He was resonsible for seeing the guns were clean and well maintained, as well as for loading them for his employer. He ensured his master's safety. A sloppy job could well put him out of work if not in jail for carelessness if his master was injured from a burst gun.

The original English guns were built to use the English top hat cap to insure a full and rapid ignition of the powder charge. However, the replica I fired was built to accept modern musket caps as a concession to the times and availability. Even so, lock time was surprisingly fast. I could not tell any difference and was able to hit clay birds without any problem or adjustment to my swing or timing. It is a much faster, surer and more uniform ignition than any flint lock could be made to do.

From my experience, it is easy to understand how modern shooting techniques evolved with the advent of these fast firing, dependable percussion doubles. Except for the convenience of fixed ammo, wingshooting has changed very little since the 1840's or so.

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

As I told you, I use 1oz loads only in the 16. The "mallet" would seem to be home reloaders press these days.

In my collection of old time 16 gauge stuff is an un-opened box of Federal "High Power" 2 9/16ths paper cased cartridges, perhaps from the late 30s or early 40s. The box (a nice work of art itself, with a full color mallard in flight) makes note of the State of MN copyright in 1927, and the shells are roll crimped with "Maximum load 6" printed on the card under the crimp. The box is marked as "Maximum load", as they are 1 1/8th oz of 6s.

Little has changed. They sure knew what they were doing back then.
Best,
Ted

Well, I guess Winchester Western decided to one up Federal by issuing 1-1/4 ounce max loads. I have a gold on red metallic colored box of 16 ga. Super-X, 1-1/4 ounce #4 loads I've never shot. They were a gift from an old friend, one box of nearly a case of mixed Remington, Federal, and Winchester 16 ga loads from the 1950's, 1960's, and 1970's. There is also a partial box of the old brown or tan Alcan-C.I.L. Canuck paper shells. A couple of 2-9/16" 1 ounce Winchester-Western red paper roll crimped loads, a handful of 2-9/16 green Remington UMC paper, both roll crimped or folded crimps. A box or two of 2-3/4' 1-1/8 ounce Winchester Western red paper shells all with folded crimps. there are a couple of Federal purple paper shells too, so I'd guess the various company colors were well established long ago before plastic shells were introduced. Oh yes, I almost forgot the light blue UMC paper shells too. Any way, perhaps Federal decided the 1-1/4 ounce 16 ga max/mag loads were not too bad an idea after all, because they still load them for the market today.

Anyway, factory 1-1/4 ounce 16 gauge shells seem to have predated both of us Ted by a few years at least. There really is very little new under our very old sun, old son!! Laughing

Shoot what you like. I'll do the same. Wink

..and Happy New Year too.

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

I would love to get all you "1oz is all I'd ever use in my 16GA's" out to my neck of the woods for a pheasant hunt and watch you grope for your 1 1/8 and/or 1 1/4 oz loads hunting roosters with a steady 25MPH blow over endless miles of wheat stubble in the Palouse country of Washington State.
And I don't care what kind of dog you bring, these birds will see em coming.
Ha! by the end of the day you'll be thinking that 10GA aint such a bad idea.
Most birds start their flight at an average of 30-40 yards away and move down wind in a hurry. The window closes fast. Personally, my best success has come (nothing else even close) with 1 1/4oz of the hardest shot you can buy out of a modified or full choke in a 12GA. So it all depends...never trash another man's choice until you've walked a mile or two in his hunting grounds. I'm not saying that 1oz out of open choked blasters won't work where I hunt, just maybe 20% of the time is all. I have to drive 300 miles to get there and usually have 3 days max to hunt. Believe me, I want to kill stone dead 100% of the roosters that give me a chance. Here's a few pix of the country my bro and I hunt. That's me holding a well-earned rooster that admittedly, fell to a Beretta 20GA Whitewing. My brother and I carried those for 5 and 8 years respectively cuz they were light. Then I switched to a 12GA Superposed and went 100% that year. My bro got a 12GA Browning 525 field the next year and went 100% too.Never even came close to that before. Coincidence? I doubt it.