16ga.com ~ View topic

Dave Erickson -- Did Jim Eyster ever mention how far he could move a pattern center? I suppose it depends on the amount of metal in the barrel and the degree of acceptable compromise, if any, in choke constriction. I find these regulation mods very interesting.

Thanks!
Tony

Guest

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2012 Posts: 1113

I have a CZ Ringneck .410 that had barrel regulation problems and excessively tight chokes that I sent to Briley for screw in chokes and correction for the barrel regulation. It's been a while, but I think the left barrel was was about 3" left and low when shot off a solid benchrest setup at 13 yards. Briley did a great job and that little .410 has turned out to be a fantastic little preserve bobwhite gun using Winchester's 3" magnums with 11/16 oz of 7 1/2's. Barrel regulation is now no longer an issue, although like a lot of my guns, I have more invested in it than I could ever sell it for.

Gentlemen,

One of the reasons I passed on the purchase of a CZ gun was because of the spotty Quality control, especially in barrel regulation. In my entire life I have never seen a L.C. Smith gun with barrel regulation problems. These modern gun manufacturers do have some engineering problems to work out for sure.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Purchase a Classic American double gun if you want correct barrel regulation.
1910 L.C. Smith 00, over 100 years old still with perfect barrel regulation.

.....Sigh.... Rolling Eyes

Yeah . . . . Nothing quite like those classic American doubles . . . https://vicknairgunsmithing.blogspot.com/2016/01/an-unbiased-look-at-design-of-american.html

While concentrating on their essential design features, Vicknair doesn't even venture into the deep, deep territory of the characteristic "svelt-ness", "handling" and "beauty" possessed by every last one of them Shocked

I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder. Objectivity? -- Nah, we'll have none of that here. And besides, Vicknair is just an out-lier in the field of gun enthusiasts -- the only guy who notices this stuff or cares, right? It's guys like him that make it necessary for the rest of us to be constantly reminded by those "in the know" of all the virtues of those classic American doubles.

Cheers!

I once needed choke work on a Beretta 627....at that time and as we shot a decoy on his pond, Ken Eyster told me of a Purdey that entered his shop with rather extreme barrel regulation issues.

Point being, issues of all manner can be found on all scatterguns, neither storied name nor swallered American kool-aid marketing frees any make of gun from problems.
The wider the range offered, the greater the number run thru the line, the unavoidable nature of a changing workforce and much more is .....reality.

Fwliw, I once reckoned poa and poi of my Trap gun....what appeared a simple answer received did not fully address what I saw when using the gun.
I believe, still, that we all can rush to judgments on what we need re a scattergun.

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2012 Posts: 1113

Pine Creek, You make a good point, and I do have my American classic, a 1939 A H Fox Special 16 ga with 30" barrels, modern stock dimensions and my preferred single trigger. A lovely old gun in great original condition and I shoot it about as well as any of my newer guns. You are spot on about barrel regulation in the old girl, but despite all that I hesitate to take the Fox into some of the really gnarly bobwhite and grouse cover I hunt, and take some of my newer guns for that duty.

Guest

Tony, is the same LC Smith report by Dewey Vicknair in your link? For some reason my computer isn't opening it. I'll stick with my AyA, Rizzini, and BSS thank you.

----

(The following was written by a gunsmith named Dewy Vicknair.)

L.C. Smith ~ America's best? (spoiler alert, it's not)
There is nothing impressive about any classic-era American doubles, but the L.C. Smith guns stand out as the best example of how NOT to design a shotgun. The fact that so many design compromises and engineering mistakes could be incorporated into one single product is truly the most impressive thing about these guns.
Evidently, the Smith's being a sidelock is what qualifies it as a "best" gun in the minds of more than a few gun writers. Clearly these men either had never seen a true best sidelock, or if they had ever seen one, lacked the discernment to know what they actually were seeing. In any event, all sidelocks are not best guns and all bests are not sidelocks. No American shotgun of the classic era, of any grade, even remotely came close to equaling an English best, least of all the Smith. Once one has seen and worked with actual high quality, it becomes difficult to make excuses for guns like the Smith. Once one disassembles an L.C. Smith for even the first time, the level of Rube-Goldbergian design readily becomes apparent.
To wit,

1 - The toplever spindle that is supported by the removable triggerplate at the bottom and held in place by a wholly inadequately sized screw.

If (when) this screw loosens, it allows the toplever spindle to move upward, out of engagement with its insufficiently sized bearing in the triggerplate. The toplever spring forces the now unsupported bottom end of the spindle to one side and causes the entire mechanism to bind.

2 - Wood that the gun simply can not spare is removed to make room for the toplever spindle, leaving two narrow vertical webs to transmit all recoil forces through the stock. This entire area is solid in any Holland-pattern sidelock.

3 - Both iterations of the double trigger safety mechanism are poorly thought-out and sloppily made.

4 - The cocking system is an answer to a question that nobody asked, and it's not a good one.

Some American gun-rag writer of the past once called this system unbreakable, I wonder how he'd square that opinion with the drawer full of broken cocking rods and cams that I've got.

5 - The first-type ejectors must have seemed like a clever idea at the time.

6 - The agri-locks, the primitive imitation of a sidelock with one spring powering the tumbler and the sear. There is no safety sear (interceptor) and the overall level of quality, even in the highest grades is astonishingly poor.

7 - The use of corrosive flux during barrel assembly that invariably leads to the need to strip and relay the ribs. When you're making more guns than everyone else, ya gotta cut some corners to keep production up.

8 - The late (single spring) hammergun lock is nothing short of an abomination with its single-legged and single-screwed bridle which can (by design) never serve its primary function of stabilizing the tumbler and sear pivots.

9 - The rotary bolt is a seemingly clever design solution to getting a crossbolt into a small space.
In that regard, it may well be. It's also pretty good at opening itself if not properly fit or if worn, due to the complementary angles of the bolt and the bite in the rib extension.
The rotary bolt, when everything is properly fitted and functioning, is as good as, but definitely no better than, any conventional bolting solution.

Ironically, the best single trigger that was ever available in a classic-era American double came in the Smith. This was Allan Lard's patented design, first seen in the guns and rifles of Westley Richards, where it always enjoyed the well-deserved reputation of being a reliable design. Given the overall average level of gunsmithing (in)competence in America, this is unsurprisingly the most maligned feature of the gun.

Dave E -- Yes, that's the article. Like you, I too will stick with my guns of Basque, Italian, English, and other non-U.S. origin. I the great context of double guns, I don't find much about those of U.S. origin that thrills me anymore. My tongue was firmly in cheek when I wrote that last post after this thread took the "L.C. Smith-ward turn" I've seen a bit too often.

Cheers!
Tony

Dave Erickson,

To say you have no idea of what you are talking about would be an understatement.
If you are an engineer please stay away from bridge and building construction. Never try to work for NASA either.

I have never seen any failed cocking rods from L.C. Smith gun, excepting on guns that were abused. Fact is if the L.C. Smith gun had been built in London they would still be talking about how great it really is.

You have it ass backward about the Lard SST, Westley Richards was granted permission form Hunter Arms to use it, and it was in the L.C. Smith gun prior to Westley Richards using it.

Engineering of the side lock, is incredible engineering, with only 4 pieces that over many life times do not fail. Never saw an L.C. Smith gun go off when the safety is on, those that claim this happens, usually have non auto safety and forget to set the safety.
The 3 position safety is incredible engineering, invented by L.C. Smith /Hunter Arms, no better safety has been engineered even today. No need for intercepting sears when the gun safety is engineered and made correctly.

The Brown Rotary Bolt is still the best double gun locking system ever engineered, used on famous high powered rifles with permission form Hunter Arms. When worn the lock up becomes tighter and never fails. Your analysis on this engineering is totally flawed also.

Deweys article is about the Box Lock altered version, of the Rotary Bolt. Altered engineering for the Box Lock double gun, not the real Brown Rotary Bolt Engineering on the L.C. Smith side lock double guns.

In short your opinion is meaningless.

One thing I agree with you on, AYA builds quality side lock double guns, the old German Master Gunmaker taught them well, and their use of the H&H design is outstanding, although their Barrels are a might thin, and dent easily.

Max Smoke,

Please feel free to purchase and use any modern gun you like, it leaves more Classic American double guns for those of us who appreciate them.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Riflemeister,

You do have a point about beating your good gun up, fewer and fewer Master Gun makers around to work on them, when they are damaged. I do have a few I use however when my guns are damaged. Let me know if you need one of them to work on your good Fox gun, hate to see the old girl left at home during hunting season.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Joined: 21 Mar 2019 Posts: 523 Location: Texas

Dave Erickson:
I agree with pine creek Dave on the L. C. Smith. I have a couple and never experienced anything like you talk about. They are not Holland and Holland, but who can afford one of those. You have forgotten that back in the old days, things were bought that were made in the USA. People bought guns to put food on the table, only a true workhorse could have survived that long. Some(most) LC Smiths were handed down, like mine, and no matter if you like them or not, you can’t beat that. Mine have fence marks, scratches and lots of stories. It will still hunt, shoot a round of skeet just like any other.

Guest

Pine Creek Dave and RGuill96971,

You need to be a more careful readers.

I didn't write that article.

Slow down and reread the text when you feel your concentration slipping. It's a good reading strategy.

A very well respected gunsmith named Dewey Vicknair wrote it.

You should deliver your complaints to him.

(I added his name to the above post with the article to help clear it up for you two.)