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MSM2019
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:05 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

Just so you know IMR/Hodgdon 800-X has been discontinued by Hodgdon. Not just out of stock......discontinued.


This is not a rumor.

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:19 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

Once again, thank you Chris Hogdon, for yanking the rug out from under us. That man has done more to impede my activities at the reloading bench than every politician ever elected to office.


Last edited by WyoChukar on Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Brewster11
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:02 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 1301
Location: Western WA

Great. It was ideal for 1 oz loads. And I just happened to notice yesterday that my 8 lb jug of 800-X was down to mostly dust and fumes. Guess I will have to cook up a new 1 oz recipe with one of those unpronounceable Scandinavian concoctions.

B.
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:31 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

I am converting to mostly Alliant powder now...or did he buy them out with intent to ruin them like IMR also? Many Hogdon powders are aggravating anyway, they seem to create more leaks than the iceberg that struck the Titanic.

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putz463
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:58 am  Reply with quote
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So is he also responsible for the demise of 4756?? If so I can go get a voodoo doll with his name on it and a box of extra large needles.

Kidding aside; what would be a decent look-to powder in 800's place?

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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:19 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 2062
Location: canandaigua - western n.y. (formerly deerhunter)

jeez Mark , I just got switched to that this past yr . Crying or Very sad The fortunate part is that powder is showing up here VERY slowly now , but a tip from a guy at the club and the last outlyer was a 4# of 800X at my distributer . Mainly for my 28ga . At 13 grns a load the 5# I've got will last me a while . Got to get the old Herco out too , good for a little while ! ( I didn't ask my guy about 700X , my all time fave ! He was talking to some other guys at the shop , and he is at 80 (back)orders just for Red Dot ! , so I guess I'll have to be really sneaky !)

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MSM2019
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:45 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

For 7/8 oz. & 1 oz., especially for autoloaders Universal or Unique work very well. I have used a fair amount of both and I like them. They meter well, you don't use a lot, they light off well with most US primers and they work over a fairly large velocity range. If you haven't used Unique since Alliant cleaned it up you will be pleased. Unique will also work with 1 1/8 oz. loads.

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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:23 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 01 Dec 2005
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This seems to be the latest burn rate chart from Hodgdon: https://imrpowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/2020-burn-rate-chart.pdf

Note that 800-X isn't even on the chart anymore. Also, interestingly, Unequal isn't either. I always wondered what purpose Unequal served other than part of the mnemonically named series (Red, Green, Unequal and Blue) intended to to irritate Alliant, as Hodgdon already had a good competitor for Unique in Universal. Has Hodgdon come to their senses about Unequal and discontinued it also? I always thought Unequal was disadvantageous name for the product, too, and oddly, more than a little bit comical. Note also they stopped prefixing the "Clays" series with the word Clays, which always seemed to confuse some buyers. Now the names are simply Clays, International and Universal -- much more descriptive of the original applications for which these powders were designed . . . but I digress . . .

Subs for 800-X? While 800-X was good stuff, it was a PITA for a lot of reloaders, as it's extra large flakes made for inconsistent powder drops without some extra effort such as supplying a little vibration to settle the charge in a bushing, or just plain individual charge weighing. I notice regrets about not being able to have it for 28 gauge loads. There are so many better choices for 28's, from Unique all the way to Longshot on the burn chart. IMHO, Alliant 20/28 is the best, and if one needs to accommodate various hull capacities, we have powder that basically behaves the same per weight, but in different densities in Unique, Universal and 20/28 from least to most dense of those three. Herco works, too. Why not use Alliant Blue Dot? It seems to get a bad rap for "cold weather", but that is so much of a non-factor, unless you keep your gun and shells in the fridge, and hunt in 10 degree F or lower. With a 28? I don't think so. Put your shells in your inside pocket if thinking about lower velocity is messing with your mind.

Another great powder in the 28, or any gauge and load where a slower powder is required is HS-6 or Winchester 540MS. Yes, it is a little more costly, and you do need more by weight, but it is very dense and fits loads in the most low-capacity hulls (Win AA-HS 28's). It flows like little ball bearings (like PSB almost) and drops with precision. It burns clean and even smells good. I will be strongly lamenting the passing of HS-6 if it is eventually discontinued, as I have suspected it will be from the introduction of Longshot. However, HS-6 has a very strong market with pistol shooters, and maybe that's what keeps it around more than anything else. I really like all those Olin-designed ball powders.

Finally, what about Longshot? It certainly has 800-X covered, too. Do I detect resistance to Longshot? I wonder why? I've had good luck with it in the small gauges - 28, 24, 20 and even 16, in heavier loads, though.

One look at the burn rate chart shows why Hodgdon has discontinued 800-X, PB, IMR's 7625 and 4756, Unequal and HS-7/Win 571. Though I find myself wishing the world would always stay the same for me, and wish I had the same number of choices I used to, those discontinuances by Hodgdon make complete sense. I'm actually amazed we reloaders are served with such variety by the various powder manufacturers.

Cheers!
Tony
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:05 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

Max,

Longshot is OK, but 800-X matches up better with 1 1/8 oz loads in the 16.

For those that like 800-X for 1 oz. loads Longshot isn't a great choice.

In the past I have been very concerned about 800-X metering. I ran out of hunting loads this year and I needed to reload more. I wanted to hunt and said screw the weighing every charge of 800-X.

You what happened? Never noticed it and never had an issue and I hunt in a lot colder temperatures now than I ever did.

When it warms up I am going to send 10 over the chrono for kicks to see how consistent it is without all the hand wringing and weighing.

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:48 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

The thing about 800-X is that it was the most "flexible" powder I ever used. It was good behind a startling amount of different shot charge weights in gauges from 28 to 10, all with reasonable pressures. The cherry on top of the sundae? Well there were two.

The large flake size solved powder migration issues with many hull/ wad combos and face it folks, getting the wads you want isn't always easy, especially now.

The other thing it did that nothing else suitable for a wide range of lead loads does, is also produce great steel shot loads in 2 3/4" 12 ga. and with far less powder than the alternatives. Once I run out of 800-X, I'm looking at using a lot more powder to do the same job in standard length 12 ga. steel loads. Not cool since it will raise my costs and could make getting good crimps more difficult. Without the compressible cushion section in steel shot wads, everything has to fit just right. I had it all figured out long ago, and now Chris Hogdon has shot that all to hell.

Then there is the matter of data. A lot of data for short hulls or low pressure uses the older powders. Also, Hogdon doesn't seem to see fit to list data by specific velocity brackets anymore. The old data from powders that have been around awhile will show it, but newer stuff like Longshot is just a matter of "here's the maximum you can cram into the hull without being over industry maximum, you can just guess the rest".

Worst part? 800-X quietly being discontinued during a shortage so we don't even have a chance to stock up. As mentioned, I will be converting to Alliant powders for most of what 800-X did for me and reserve my 800-X for those things that other powders do not do as well.

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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:58 pm  Reply with quote
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Yes, those are good points, WyoChukar and MSM2019. I am in your camp, and I sympathize. Still, I understand Hodgdon's choices. It's business. Will their decisions leave them with an uncompetitive set of offerings? We'll see, and we, being "the market" do have something to say about it, though I doubt Hodgdon will be left uncompetitive by these product terminations, no matter how frustrated we are. If our collective demand was big enough, these decisions would not have been taken. It's exactly the same with the 16 gauge itself, and the major manufacturers' decisions to de-emphasizing or discontinue or limit 16 gauge products. The WAA16 and R16 wads are just one example, for instance. It's a demand thing, or a perceived or manipulated-by-manufacturer fait accompli demand thing. In the end, it is about money and survival in business.

Again, I wish we could keep all the choices we once had, but how much extra would we, the market, have paid to keep all the old choices? We don't know or can't agree, and likely won't, but undoubtedly, it would have been higher. Somebody trying to stay in the business of manufacturing powders or anything else (i.e. make a $buck$) has to take their best guess of how product covers market, and reap the consequences. Much as I lament the reduction of choices, it seems not enough others feel that way. I could be wrong on that, of course, but even if I wasn't, we aren't all speaking to the manufacturers as a strong group/market. I am glad the manufacturers such as Hodgdon, etc. have stayed in the business. Certainly, thanks to enthusiasts such as ourselves, appreciation of the 16 has provided a niche big enough for gun and reloading component makers to make a profit, but we will always be on fragile "specialist" ground, and with powder manufacturers making products to span all applications and gauges, hopes for bringing back favorite powders are even more fragile.

Most Kind Regards,
Tony Lowe
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Brewster11
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:31 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 1301
Location: Western WA

Agree w Wyo re 800-X, it was OUR 16ga powder. Yes the flakes are large and you must calibrate the powder bushing by weight, BUT unlike Longshot, 800-X is very linear in pressure and with a couple simple steps it meters uniformly. It is a very robust powder for recreational shooters and reloaders.

Re Longshot, it is not a practical substitute for 800-X. Longshot is an awesome 16ga powder for heavy nontoxic loads but the pressure is very nonlinear with charge, and the tested pressures do not correspond with published figures. One should test the full range of possible loads you might use, as the pressure can jump with small change in charge. Also the pressures vary from lot to lot, based on actual lab test data. You must settle on one, and only one charge and not depart from it without further testing.

It’s a pity 800-X is gone as we devoted considerable time and expense testing various powders and loads, and finding 800-X to be the ideal powder for the heart of the 16ga domain, I.e. the 7/8 - 1 1/8 oz load. Now we have to start over from scratch as one of the ancillary results of our tests was the entire body of published 16ga loads from powder companies and “other” places are questionable as they often do not agree with actual tested loads, and sometimes don’t agree within themselves!

That leaves T Armbrust, PR, and other labs to provide reliable test data.

Ok got that of my chest, let’s get started and find a new powder!

V/R

B.
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:06 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

Okay, I will finally dive into the business aspect of this discussion, with something that has not been mentioned. Hogdon has likely sacrificed 800-X, (and previously: PB, 7625, and 4756) to make room for all of his new stuff. Look at the rifle powder side of their line up. There have been a great many product additions there and unless Hogdon is willing to build an additional factory to keep up with production demand for all products, and it appears the company is not willing, then they had more on their plate than they could handle. To be honest, our interests have largely been sacrificed to cater to the current black rifle and super magnum crazes.

Of course one could also easily argue that we really didn't need so many new target load powders over on the shotgun side of things in recent times either. They all do much the same thing in the same payload range. Alliant is guilty of this too, but thankfully isn't eliminating other powders to get it done. I would have happily sacrificed one of these redundancies to keep a truly unique and versatile powder like 800-X around. I can live without 700-X far more easily than 800-X. Red Dot (and the IMR clone), Promo, and a number of others all do the same thing as 700-X with about the same amount of powder, for about the same cost.

I'm still a bit upset about 4756 since it did things for me in 10 ga. with less powder consumed than the alternatives. Mark and I discussed the fact that Longshot appears to be largely the same powder, in terms of performance and consumption quantity, but the big issue is that data for many 4756 applications is still lacking for Longshot, especially short chamber ammo and 10 ga. loads. With new data, the 4756 situation could be easily remedied with Longshot. However, the necessary data does not appear to be forth coming unless I and others want invest a lot of money in testing since, unlike the factories, we do not have our own test equipment.

Unfortunately, I can't say the same about 800-X. Try as I might, I have found no other powder on the American market that possesses its particular qualities. This is what makes it such a shame to discontinue the product. Nobody has ever succeeded in creating as forgiving a powder that works over such a wide range of parameters. 800-X was truly a powder engineering triumph.

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MSM2019
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:52 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

Here are the reasons why I chose 800-X for many hunting loads. I have always hunted where the temps can get below freezing and many times colder than that. I like 1 1/8 oz. loads in the 16. I wanted a powder that would perform at the 1275 FPS 10,000 PSI level.

800-X is a primer sensitive powder, meaning there are a lot of options. However it likes primers on the cooler side. CCI209 and Remington 209PSTS work the best.

800-X is not temperature sensitive, because of it's large flakes it actually can produce higher pressures in cold temps than it will at 70 degrees. When cold, the flakes fracture exposing powder without retardants to the flame front. When we did tests with it way back when, there was little if any falloff in performance when exposed to a 24 hour cold soak at -5 degrees F. I don't know of another powder that reacts this way.

800-X even though large flake, is reasonable in density making for proper wad column heights. And you don't need a lot of it to get the job done. 20 - 23 grains for most 16 gauge 1 oz. & 1 1/8 oz. loads.

The downside, it meters kinda iffy. The best I can get out of it is about +/- .5 grains. That's just reloading with no baffle on a Sizemaster, in the regular reloading sequence. Turns out that the bit of fluctuation doesn't seem to bother it......but I will check out just what it actually does as far as consistent velocities go.

When it comes to metering, do not assume just because some folks are unhappy with it in the smaller gauges that it meters that terribly in the 16 because it does not. You have to remember that +/- .5 grain isn't really all that bad....and perfect powder drops do not make perfect consistent ballistics in a shotshell, contrary to popular belief.

That's my 2 cents on 800-X.

Tom Armbrust is the person that gave me the insight into 800-X.

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stevesavage
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:09 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Apr 2017
Posts: 150

Hodgedon should have made a good run and given us a chance to stock up before discontinuing.
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