16ga.com ~ View topic

Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Posts: 2124 Location: Hudson,Wy

Since another thread here has become hijacked/ sidetracked so far off course and due to some comments I feel it my duty to bring some things to light that will hopefully make us all think, hard, and be honest about who we may or may not be.

This all started with the mention of a 50 yard pheasant. Now many apples and oranges comparisons have surfaced. Bobwhite quail, ruffed grouse, and woodcock are just nothing like prairie birds, or chukars for that matter. 50 yard ruffed grouse? Show me where I can actually expect getting a clear shot at ole ruff at 50 in flight. Woodland game is self limiting in respect to range because you don't get 'em if you don't hit 'em and you can't hit 'em if you can't see them.

But since such analogies surfaced and there is so much talk about crippling risk and respect for the birds, it brings up the appalling query: why shoot them on the wing at all? After all, challenge is for the clay field, right? Yeah, I know, that one hurts. However, each time we choose to give "sporting chance" by taking birds on the wing instead of on the branch we intentionally lay the ground work for the ultimate failure (a lost cripple) instead of a sure kill. Tough to swallow isn't it?

Before I am charged with crimes of heresy, be certain that I am not advocating the potting of sitting birds. The reality is that our own arguments about making decisions that may cripple a bird can be powerfully used against us, by those who don't even hunt for that matter.

There are plenty of people ready to brow beat us. Unfortunately, this day and age it appears that many of them come from our own ranks. Shaming others over a difference of opinion or personal motivations will destroy us long before external forces will. I have been watching it happen on social media with alarming frequency. A good friend once said something that applies to life in general, not just hunting. His words? "Just because it's not my way, doesn't necessarily make it wrong". I still have to remind myself of this from time to time.

Nash wrote to friend that he sometimes took shots he shouldn't have. We all have. How many have "stretched" a barrel without ever knowing it until after the shot? People misjudge distance on both sides of the mark. How many have taken shots at grouse, woodcock, or quail in cover that greatly reduced the odds of a clean kill? Limbs affect shot patterns. Now for the most damning of all, how many have continued to hunt and shoot at birds when having an "off" day with the gun? These are all legitimate questions we must answer honestly.

More questions. Does it really matter to hold a lifeless, still warm bird in hand? Do we feel triumph or remorse? The answer to this one may well determine whether we should be playing golf or something else other than hunting glorious fowl. Seriously. Start going afield with an empty gun if actually taking a precious and wondrous bird home for the table does not play a part in completing the experience. Nothing wrong with making that choice, it's yours to make. Just don't make it for anyone else.

One of the greatest things about hunting wild birds, that turned it into my way of life for me, is the variety of experiences. Not only the variety of species and the grandeur of their diverse realm of habitats, but the endlessly varied interaction they provide. No two hunts are the same. I hope that never changes. "In my face" birds stop my heart. "Longer" birds on the prairie present their own unique satisfaction after a very long day of walking and very little shooting.

We have whispy small ga. guns and thundering 10's for a reason. Not every situation calls for the same Rx and not every hunter seeks the same from a day outdoors.

That 50 yard bird? Yes, I shoot them. I have shot a startling number of them and don't say that seeking any sort of personal glory because that is not what makes me tick. I say it as a fact of reality and to be honest, I don't cripple any more birds at 50 than I do at 30. I certainly do use different guns and loads tailored to such situations, for I owe it to a noble bird to give him my best, just as he has done for me. I don't like losing a bird once I press the trigger, not one that has been hit. It bothers me.

The decisions we make define us. Others may understand them, others may misinterpret them. In the end, we are the ones that live with them. My advice is enjoy everyday afield to its fullest and know your own limitations. Take from each hunt what it has to offer, all of it. This means to enjoy the morning frost, wind giving grass breath and voice of its own, fresh air in your lungs and marvelous sights before your eyes. Cherish any dog that will devote its life to pursuing wild game for you. Enjoy the thrill of the flush and accept that either the bird will triumph or you will. Be grateful for a bird in hand, taking time to admire it before thrusting it into the game bag. Give thanks for the day you spent with the birds, the dogs, and friends; for tomorrow is not guaranteed to any of the above. Make your decisions count and accept the fact that some things just aren't for everybody.

Me? I will go on doing what I do. Somedays it will include taking a 50 yard shot. Somedays it won't. Take from that what you will and remember to make your own decisions worthwhile.
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Joined: 30 Jul 2018 Posts: 58 Location: Dayton Wa.

Yep! At 80, every day afield is a true blessing that I enjoy in my own way. Enjoy each and every outing.

"Hijacked" might be a bit strong but I suppose ground is routinely plowed before planting.

Apple and orange analogies?...not from me in other than challenging can happen with all game birds. Some softer, some tougher in constitution.

There be a difference twixt challenge relative to distance, imo, and challenging game birds, either flushed or sprung. I have not the skills to explain that further to you.

The old "leave the gun at home" line does not play but can sound good...still, I believe that was linked to a dead bird making the day "complete"....I explained my differing view.
Too many good days which felt complete, to me, sans a feathered lump to allow your definition to define...sorry.

There are indeed folks ready to brow beat "us"....but I clearly explained my thoughts over comments on public message boards re pitchers & ears...you disagree?...sorry again but never speaking ill of fellow hunter or their decisions without an explained counter view is not an idea in which I believe.
Let's not shoot off our own foot in pride of accomplishment.
"Us" need waaay more than us more established cooked folks...either in furthering hunting or in furthering other more important issues.

Nash?....being a man of his times saves his reputation, imo but I believe you will find that I admitted long or ill-advised shots are taken by us all.
Speed-reading is not all it may be cracked up to be...slow down perhaps.

Holding a dead bird...Triumph, no...remorse, maybe ....that often only follows age's touch tho but it can be why some pull back from shooting the little bogsucker in later years, for example.
Thinking that golf should have been the game for those folks is rather insulting.
We change....some, change.
I am not ashamed to consider more than any triumph.
Plus, to get right down to it...bird hunting and shooting is not exactly rocket science, nor is it all requiring of a lofty peak of individual skill.
I think holding a dead bird for me..now...is most about memories and Time.
Additionally, does no one wonder why GBE's famous line, perhaps misquoted here...."A dog, a gun and time enough" does not include a bird?
He was a wise man in many ways, a flawed man in a few perhaps but he was a man well worth listening to and....considering thoughtfully..imo and ime.

Don't believe anyone suggested a value in a one gun approach......I did imply a bird first approach relative to long pokes.
Dang, dem sorrys are mounting up...but truthfully, in that I am not a bit sorry....scratch that last sorry.

You will go on you say....good, but in making this personal you missed my point.
Perhaps that was deliberate to permit your missive or perhaps not...I don't know.
I do know that I cherish dogs, make decisions and live with them afield and on message boards.....and as to the shiny points of being there, well, I have known them for many years.

WyoChukar,

Not very many times will a Grouse hunter get a clear shot at a Grouse 50 plus yards out. I have been Grouse hunting for over 50 years now and have only seen it happen a few times.

Gunny Bowman shot a Grouse on top of one of our Potter County, Pa mountains, as the bird flew just over top of the 12' - 15' hard woods. I would have never taken the shot myself, and I had my 16 gauge L.C. Smith gun with #6's under the back trigger. Gunny standing opposite me on the hill side with his 20 gauge double gun, killed that Grouse with one shot from his back trigger using #6 shot. It was one of the greatest long Grouse shots I have ever witnessed. We stepped the distance off and the Grouse had fallen dead 56 yards from where we stood. Gunny actually apologized to me for taking the shot, said he just could not help himself.

It does happen but very very few times.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Gunny & Pine Creek Ryman Daisy after a beautiful point and retrieve.

There are places and times where it can happen, but the chances are far and few between.

Joined: 17 Jan 2014 Posts: 1376 Location: Denver, Colorado

I used to shoot a big 10 double on large ducks and geese that had 3 1/2-inch chambers. It would (and often did) kill waterfowl at 40 to 50 yards using bismuth shot. I bought it specifically for that particular use and learned to use it appropriately (can't find a pix of that one, but here's where i used to use it).

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My everyday grouse gun (below) couldn't begin to do that job. That ten weighed 9 1/2lbs and had 32-inch barrels. My "little" William Richards 16 looked quite small in comparison, w/28-inch tubes and 5lbs14.

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Using the right tools and then having developed skills for each is part of what makes hunting intriguing for me.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1837 Location: Central ND

Having been part of the side tracked thread I feel the need to respond.

First my motivations for upland hunting are to enjoy being outdoors, watching my dogs work and hopefully harvesting a bird or two. The big deal for me are the dogs, without them I probably would not hunt upland. BTW upland birds, including turkeys, are about the only thing I hunt, with the odd duck hunt thrown in now and then.

My job, IMHO (for me not anyone else) in that mix is to know when to shoot, when not to shoot and having the skills and the equipment to be effective at first shot, one shot kills.

I have worked at the load/gun/choke end of things for years and I am still developing new loads.

Even though it is only an 1100, my hunting shotgun has been fitted by a professional. It shoots a 60/40 pattern at 30 yards. Timney did the trigger, a floating rib by Simmons, long forcing cone, ported barrel and Briley Thin Wall chokes. Everything about this gun is tailored to me and proper patterns. If I need more gun I have a 12 gauge Beretta Onyx, that was fit to me by the same professional, shooting at the same 60/40 POI at 30 yards.

For the shooting part I have also worked at that, shooting registered Sporting Clays, FITASC, 5 Stand and trap. I have also, over the years, shot in a winter skeet league. I shoot year round. Sometimes with my 16 ga. 1100, the gun I use for most of my hunting and sometimes with a 12 gauge. I work at it. I also have shot a fair amount of nuisance birds and crows at the local dairy farms when I lived in CT.

After all of the above, I guess I got a bit miffed at the suggestion that a 50 yard wing shot is unsportsman like. I know for an absolute fact that I can make a 50 yard shot on any upland bird, in the right situation. Do I shoot at every 50 yard bird I see? Absolutely not, as I feel it is my responsibility to make a first shot, one shot kill which for me means, knowing when and when not to attempt a shot.

Last year I crippled one bird, a rooster at 25 yards. I shot over him taking out his wings. The dog found that rooster 200 yards later in some cattails. I also did not take any 50 yard shots last year. If I had to guess, the majority of shots were in 30 to 35 yard range for 2020.

I guess the whole point of this is, we do not know each other really. We do not hunt in the same areas, with the same birds, with the same topography, with the same vegetation and the same weather. We do not know how much time and effort has been expended on the pursuit of upland birds. While expressing our views, I think we each should speak of our own experiences, thoughts and moralities and not make judgements without full knowledge of the other guy's situation.

I will do my best to adhere to what I have suggested.

Joined: 13 Apr 2015 Posts: 75

There is a man in Idaho who loves to fly fish for trout in the wild streams and rivers in his area. One day he was stopped in mid-stream with fly rod in hand by the game warden and asked to produce his fishing license. "Don't have one" was his reply. Why not demanded the warden. The man walked to the shore and presented his rod and the fly he had on. The fly was a well known pattern but without hook. "I have no intention of catching fish, I just enjoy the rise and the pleasure of the trout tugging on the line" The warden, speechless smiled and walked away.

I think it comes down to personal choice, and as long as you don't cross the line, 'vive la difference' as the Frenchies say.

Joined: 09 Mar 2016 Posts: 753 Location: Mn.

Joined: 08 May 2018 Posts: 196

Wow I thought I would never road hunt always used a shotgun and dogs on rabbits but after moving to NM I road hunt the next day after a good snow with a old Winchester 61 and weaver B4 scope and headshots sure beats bitting on a occasional #6.

Gentlemen,

We are getting off track again, however just because something is legal does not make it ethical. My traditional hunting ethics do not allow for road hunting or shooting birds on the ground. GBE introduced the sporting world to Pa's Upland Shooting life in the writing of his great books. I was raised in this upland shooting life and IMO there is a right and wrong way to due things. GBE pretty much spelled our traditional ethical values out.

If you believe road hunting and ground swatting are permissible you are a different kind of sportsman than I am, no matter where you were raised and taught to hunt.
I understand not everyone agrees with our standards for ethical hunting, however I will never change what I believe. Ethical hunting is not just about killing something its way more important than that. Character is the measure of a sportsman hunting ethically when nobody else is watching. God however is always watching.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

I tried to read all of "Volume 1" over the course of the last week or so, and now we appear to be well into "Volume 2" . . . . .

My 2 cents worth. If you feel confident taking 50 yard shots, fine, go ahead. I'm sure there are some out there, seasoned shooters, that can make those shots with the proper equipment. It has been my observation over 60 years of waterfowl and upland bird hunting that there are not many shooters capable of routinely making that shot, however, and that the equipment carried by most on upland game hunts (not necessarily so with waterfowl) is at a disadvantage to provide a killing shot at that distance. But again, if you're confident and have good equipment, enjoy.

One argument presented in "Volume 1" that I chuckled over had to do with a statement about good clay shooters routinely powdering 50 yard crossing targets. I rarely shoot clay, but one day was invited to shoot with a very respectable shooter, a winner of numerous clay and live pigeon shoots, on a sporting clays course. A third shooter was along. Both carried Krieghoff's, and one was reported to be insured by the person who invited me for "over 6 figures." My 16 gauge Citori, which I shot with that day, is so worn I might insure it for 3 figures. During the shoot, a series of 50 yard crossing targets were presented. I don't remember how many targets each shooter was to shoot at, perhaps five, but neither of the Krieghoff owners or myself touched a single one of them. It hurt both of them scorewise, as they ended up with a mid-80s score out of 100 (I was in the high 60s). So much for expert shooters powdering crossing clays at 50 yards!

I don't live in a pheasant state, but I usually hunt them 2 weeks a winter, and usually long after the opening day of the season. Yes, roosters can be educated and flush wild or at 30-50 yards ahead of the hunter or dogs. But not all of them. If there are many pheasants around, and you have a good pointing dog or flusher that is well trained to hunt close, harvesting a good number of roosters is the norm in my experience. Most are taken at 25-35 yards after flushing near the hunter. The reason is that a lot of educated roosters (and dumb ones?) hunker down to let danger pass, but a good dog will locate them for easy kills. A dogless hunter doesn't see these birds unless he steps on them, or a pause in walking makes the bird nervous and they flushes.

Yes, I've taken a pheasant or three at 50 yards a few times, but probably 90% of the pheasants I've shot in my life, all with a 16 gauge, have been taken at less than 35-40 yards. I rarely get the "50 yard shot" presentation--my birds are mostly flushing over points nearby or they are wild flushes of running birds at distances of greater than 50 yards. Toting a tightly chocked 12 gauge on my pheasant hunts would put me at a disadvantage under my hunt circumstances.

And I would probably do poorly on 50 yard shots as I don't have the repetitive experience needed by good shotgun shooters for that type of target, particularly on crossing shots. I've passed on a few of them over the years. My choice.

No hunting aesthetics above, just nuts and bolts.

Joined: 07 Jun 2020 Posts: 224

I cannot claim an ability to consistently engage long range (50 yd) targets

For me a 30 yard pheasant or duck is about what I believe I can kill well. That said I have discovered by careful marking in my decoys the 20 yard mark I rarely engage beyond and regularly killed ducks at that range when duck hunting.

I believe most people believe they are killing farther out than they really are. People over estimate their distances.

In recent times I do not duck hunt, but intend to again. The only “long range” shooting I can claim these days is dove with steel and even that is 30 yards (marked with a decoy dove) and less.

Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 1307 Location: Western WA

50 yd grouse shots? That's the rule, not the exception out here, if not farther. Strolling down old logging roads and abandoned rail beds produces many long range looks, if not shots, at grouse of all stripes.

We don't take the shots at that range of course. The trick is to get within 35 yds without flushing them, not an easy task after the first week or two, then bag them on the wing. A rather careless air helps; a slow keen stalk will panic them. Then there are those that let you walk up within a foot or two. Nobody with a heart could pot them, save those on the brink of starvation.

Cheers
B.

Joined: 21 Sep 2019 Posts: 31 Location: Lake Taupo, NZ

"however just because something is legal does not make it ethical."
This causes me to remember my great uncle Harry.
A fine Scots gentleman of strong moral standing, who commenting on the idea of fishing on a Sunday (in a country where it was allowed) stated in a dulcet baritone "It may be legal but that does nae make it right."

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2012 Posts: 1113

The area where I live in the Ozarks was a quail hunter's paradise back before the quail died out to the point where I refuse to hunt any of the few wild bobwhite covies remaining. That relegates my bird hunting to western state trips for multiple upland species and hunting preserves in the local area when hunting from home. My philosophy for the ethical hunting of wild birds is entirely different from hunting pen raised birds on a hunting preserve.

On wild birds, I try to take a single bird from a covey of quail or Huns or whatever I'm into at the time. I don't start hunting singles unless it's on my buddy's Idaho ranch where some years we are into hundred bird covies of California quail. About 40 yards is my comfort range and thanks to a couple of good German Shorthaired pointers, most shots are a lot closer. On most birds if I'm fairly sure the first shot hit the bird from indications such as feathers flying or on pheasant rocking the bird with the first shot, I'll use the second barrel to try to prevent just wasting the bird as coyote food.

For pen raised birds on a hunting preserve, the chances of the released bids surviving the hawks and eagles around here to actually breed and reproduce are exactly zero. Piles of feathers in the fields are stark evidence of the fate awaiting any birds that escape the guns. On preserve birds if the dog is steady on point and the bird flushes wild, I will take and often make the 50 yard plus shot. If the dog puts the bird up before I go in for the flush, I don't shoot, but try to mark the bird down to try another go at it. Often. I'll have 10 quail put out in a field and come in with residual quail, chukar or pheasants that escaped another hunter. I approach the preserve bird hunting as more of a training opportunity for my dogs than a real bird hunt. In my experience the birds once released are already dead, it is just a matter of who gets to dine on them.