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Chicago
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:03 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 1376
Location: Northern Illinois

Pine Creek/Dave,
Just because your hunting ethics don’t allow for you to ground swat a grouse doesn’t make it wrong, it is just not appropriate for you and me. Many folks can’t get around as well as others, but they still enjoy a day driving the roads and shooting a few grouse. Others simply grew up in families that can’t imagine why in world you would bother to waste a shell on a flying grouse. Different strokes for different folks.

Good Hunting,
Mike
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PatrickB
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:42 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 592
Location: Minnesota

One bird species might be "easier" to kill then another but let's not forget a shooter needs to have the skill, confidence and appropriate loads and choke for such distances no matter the bird.

I was lectured as a youngster about shooting within 40 yards and therefore so ingrained I rarely pull the trigger beyond such a distance. No strong opinion about others who are comfortable doing so other than in general 50 yards is a long poke for a shotgun even in favorable situations - you gotta be good or lucky or both. Over the years I've seen hunting partners bang away at roosters and waterfowl beyond 40 yards with mixed results. Same was true with so called easy kill birds like sharpies and huns on the open prairies or the occasional ruffed grouse cutting across an open grazing field. With the exception of a few truly good shooters a lot of foolish long range shooting at such birds justified by any number of the typical excuses.

That said, regardless of range we have all taken shots at birds that with hindsight would suggestion the more sportsmanship decision would have been to let it go. I'm not about to start throwing stones at others who take an occasional 40-50 yard shot they honestly thought offered a good chance of downing the bird.

As for ruffed grouse, in my youth we often hunted "pocket" woods with farm crop/hay fields or grazing fields between woodlots. Not unusual for a grouse (even an occasional woodcock) to bolt across those open fields to another distant woodlot. Everyone seem to understand a load of #7.5 or #8 shot out of an open choke barrel was not appropriate at 40 much less 50 yard birds. But sometimes the old timers would shoot #6 shot and pull down an open field long range bird. Of course if they missed everyone saw it and verbal abuse came hard and heavy.. Anyways, point being in those situations it was possible, although rare, to have long range ruffed grouse shooting.
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tramroad28
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:13 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

Unfortunately, graveling a bird routinely enters these discussions and reason ranges from tradition to boredom to need....legal certainly does enable and, it happens.
I followed a pickup driving a two-track in the Yoop....in the bed were a boy and an older man, possibly the father, at his shoulder.
Toward dusk it was and they soon stopped....the lad took a shot over the cab....successfully.
Ta-daa, in some form.

Such an act or tradition is not my cuppa but neither does it relate in note or complaint, at all, to long pokes at game birds, for me, for reasons previously stated.
I remain unimpressed that technology or hard work is never finished with defining the word long... re bird hunting.
I'm saddened that so often raised feathers of defense, generalized or personalized, are first up to direct responses on many subjects.
For those many issues, afield and not, that predictability of response is exactly why nothing changes and why "It's Legal" and "I Want" are two phrases waaay overused today....almost as much as "I can" or "I did".
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:17 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

tramroad28, what you are trying to have us believe is that your way is the only correct way and anyone that does or thinks something different is some how less than.....


Thank goodness this is the USA and we don't have to submit to the naysayers code 'ethics'.

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tramroad28
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:48 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

MSM2019 wrote:
Tramroad what you are trying to have us believe is that your way is the only correct way and anyone that does or thinks something different is some how less than.....


Thank goodness this is the USA and we don't have to submit the naysayers code 'ethics'.


No....I am suggesting that there are real world considerations beyond ability, legality or desire that should enter into the decisions we all make afield....enter more than they do, for myself and others. Idea
I believe ethics is less involved with 50 yard and over pheasant shots than is commonsense.

Enlarging that narrow comment just noted to be driven by Ethics, capital E, or gun types, other birds, personal effort or even "thank god this is the USA" is all too common and a hindrance to thought beyond our own front bead.
I hope folks new to being there are able to read and consider without first deciding to be a Shirt or a Skin.
Fingers crossed for 'em.
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:32 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Gentlemen,

The great thing about hunting here in the USA is that we are free to hunt in the manner we choose as long as it is inside the game laws of the individual state, and talk about it also. I realize that my traditional upland hunting discipline has not been taught to everyone, who carries a gun and hunts with it. GBE wrote about our upland shooting life here in Pa and many people bulked at his ethics, even in his era. For me however it is part of our family tradition to hunt in this fair chase manner, and I would never think of violating it. Further I never violate the legal limit of gunning any animal, bird or fish, it is just the way I was raised. We do not hunt to exist, although I do love the fish, wild game and wild bird meals. We sport hunt today for our enjoyment, so in our family fair chase is the way we hunt and fish. IMO those who just want to kill something are missing what the great out doors is really all about.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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MSM2019
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:59 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

Well, thanks guys, and all this time I believed that good wing shooting was a part of upland hunting......who knew?

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Mark...You are entitled to your own opinion. You aren't entitled to your own facts.
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double vision
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:48 am  Reply with quote
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Rolling Eyes


Last edited by double vision on Tue May 04, 2021 4:49 am; edited 2 times in total
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UncleDanFan
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:06 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 3370
Location: The Great Northwet

50 yd shots are common in chukar country. When a covey flushes at 30 yds, your second shot is often in the 45-50 yd range. That's why an ideal chukar gun is ic/f or lm/xf. That said, sometimes you just don't shoot.

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MSM2019
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:36 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

I think that a few folks believe that longer shots aren't good shots and from their posts, they suggest that a good many of us are sky busting and have no morality or concern for the birds we pursue, as we are just trying to fill a game pouch.

That is way off base, to the point of being almost laughable, if their posts weren't such a poorly veiled, damning judgement on folks they have no real knowledge of.

I hope all is well in your part of the country....good day and stay healthy.

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Mark...You are entitled to your own opinion. You aren't entitled to your own facts.
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tramroad28
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:30 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

"Sky busting", to me, has never related to pheasants and whether that exact practice results in wounded birds or, more often, waterfowl being pushed away from other blinds ie other hunters.....the mention here does not fit and is strictly a move to step farther from the main point of consideration to where comfort appears more easily found and comments can get colored as needs be.

When being willing to state that a consideration of the difference between good and wise shots and, especially, worst case and odds re first shot 50 yard pheasants is viewed as attacking one's morality then methinks that is a bit too much protesting....too much of feeling offended and of missing a greater point than the easy one of self.
Even worse when on an upland shooting message board....again, never speaking ill of anyone in anyone's group of interest is a sure way to head thought downhill.

Judgement is quite common in Life....received and given, and by us all.
I plead guilty on both counts....that vexing human within me.
Judgement is tho, one of those words that brings forth an immediate negative reaction...add "damning" and X5.
However, accept that a larger point than You can be important ...and important for others without Your particulars...then judgement can serve to raise considerations of value....dare I say, we all can learn from thoughts that may be uncomfortable.
Sadly, the too often first thought to a tough comment today is..."that is agin me!"
We all suffer when that happens.

Again, for folks new to going afield a message board such as this one can serve important purposes.
And those purposes, imo, should go beyond "16s are swell", "you go guy", "well done" or "try Fluharty County".
An important purpose should be in finding that all considerations afield are open to thought, open to maybe, open to learning and change ...even tho a few might feel personally offended.
That last is on their hook.
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:12 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Chicage,

There are certain consideration made for those who are unable to no longer hunt in a fully traditional sporting manner, or someone who is not sport hunting and needs the extra meat to help feed the family. If a man has one of these Pa special licenses and can hunt all year around, they fall into a different category, sport hunting or sport fishing ethics, do not apply to these who live off the land. Here in Potter County we still have a few of these families, we still donate a Grouse, Woodcock and Turkey to these families each hunting season. One of these Potter County ladies after just being remarried, ask me especially if I would please continue leaving the Grouse on her front porch. She loved eating them so much. My Grandfathers tradition of our family helping their family will continue as long as I am alive.

In our families traditional Upland Shooting life, we believe all should hunt and fish ethically, IMO there is no need for a sport hunter to hunt with a gun loaded with more than two shells, flush and shoot at any individual bird more than 2 times, road hunt, shoot birds in trees or on the ground, or poach in any way, it is very unsporting and fair chase is always the order of the day, and we never give orders to another mans dog, excepting an emergency situation. Further if we see another hunter in trouble we go to their aid. We realize our family traditions are not like some other hunters. These traditions have been passed down thru are family, for many many generations, and we do not violate them. Our children are taught from an early age what is expected of them, both in our homes and in Gods wilderness, our 2nd home.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man


It's never to young when it comes to educating our children on the Upland Shooting Life.

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:32 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

Well, it looks like I accomplished what I set out to do, get everybody to stop and think beyond surface level. Of course some of it raised hackles, and sorry to anyone who thought I made this "personal", I was just covering all the points in a previous discussion which had become tangential to the original post asking about a specific shotshell.

I did my best to be respectful and encourage open discussion and open discussion is indeed what occurred.

Am I taking issue with anyones' comments, core beliefs, and ethics? Nope. Like I said earlier, make your decisions and make them matter. When a personal code has served you (and your predecessors) well, there is no need to abandon it. It's not my place in life to criticize any of the choices shared here. I just felt everybody needed an opportunity to get this out in the open since tensions were getting high and people seemed to be chomping at the bit to speak their minds. Thus I felt it best to provide a specific post for just that rather than watch it fester up at random moments in random threads. That is all...goodnight and pleasant wishes from a guy in wind blown Wyoming.

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double vision
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:32 am  Reply with quote
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Rolling Eyes


Last edited by double vision on Tue May 04, 2021 4:48 am; edited 4 times in total
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:16 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

WyoChukar,

Garhart I always appreciate your point of view, and did not take any of this personally. I like the conversation!

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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"L.C. Smith America's Best" - John Houchins

Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers
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