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Dave in Maine
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:23 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Sep 2010
Posts: 1972
Location: Maine

My drilling is 16x16x 8x57JRS. It's relatively new, so I know it's a .323 bore. I can't immediately help on sussing out whether yours is a .318 or .323, but more about that later.

1. Reloading the 8x57R: you should be able to use the same shellholder as one would use for the 44-40. That's what I got. As to the dies, the 8x57 Mauser set is what you'd need. If indeed your gun is a .318, you might get by with crimping the bullet. You're going to have to have someone knowledgeable slug the bore. That's really the only way to get a true measurement.

2. Bullets: Grafs carries a good selection of 8mm, probably more than Ballistic Products or Precision Reloading. Can't hurt to check all 3 and any other reloading houses you might think of. If you have to go with reloading, I would stick to the longer, heavier bullets. Lighter, shorter bullets will not stabilize as well and your accuracy will suffer. Start with bullets around 196 grains. Since you're in Cali, I can't suggest you use cast bullets, but those would work (and be more economical with the powder).

3. Powder: if you have a 30-06, the powders that work well in the 30-06 will work well in the 8mm. I shoulda bought more 4895.

4. Cases: the easiest source is once-fired factory ammo. Otherwise they're out there but not especially inexpensive. (I can't see why people don't pick up their brass at the range. It just mystifies me. It's like they're throwing money away.)

5. Factory ammo: my gun really, really likes S&B loaded with their 196 grain SPCE. Despite my rifle skills, it has shot 3 shot groups at 50 yards where all the holes were touching. You should be able to get something like that out of your gun - Germans make accurate rifles, especially when their customer is paying beaucoup D-marks for a fine sporter, which yours is. Prvi Partizan is a good second choice. Again, they load with a 196. Choose that.

6. If Merkel sent you a copy of a card with names on it, that would likely be in German and a record of the proofing. Those would most likely be the names of the people who supervised proofing and accuracy testing. Remember, their laws on proofing are a lot more detailed and stringent than ours. That card should tell you the bore of the rifle as it left the factory. If you can't read German, put up an image of it. I'll read it for you, because I can read German.

7. If you can put up an image of the proof stamps on the barrels that should allow determining the age of the gun. Since circa 1923 the Germans have stamped on the chamber ends of all barrels the month and year the gun passed proof. They also stamp the caliber and, in some older cases, the actual load used to proof the gun (for accuracy). Knowing the age of the gun can help in determining the caliber. The proof card should also show the date of proofing.

Congratulations on a nice acquisition.

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fn16ga
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:23 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 09 Jan 2013
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Location: Florida

https://shop.reedsammo.com/8x57R-J-200g-SP-8x57JR200.htm
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casebro
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:14 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego

Dave in Maine wrote:
.....
Congratulations on a nice acquisition.


Barrel date is 1931.

Ebay had dies and a #26 shell holder, Brewster fixed me up with some brass. Bullets are coming from Reed. A rimless 8x57 will not chamber, the neck gets too big with the .323 bullet. And that is the problem with the JR vs RS- The '88 Mauser had shallow grooves and the lands wore out too fast, so they deepened the grooves and went to .323 bullets. A 323 bullet can easily get squeezed into 318 rifling, but if you manage to jam the round in to a 318 chamber the neck won't let go and pressures sky rocket. Later the Germans ran a 323 chambering reamer into the 88 Mausers and used S series ammo.

[img] https://photos.imageevent.com/bigchriscase/misc//icons/Gewehrkarte%2019324.pdf.jpg [/img]

Merkel sent me the line card. PDF, trouble viewing?Hand written. Proof was 3.5 grams Specialfreiluch (sp) and 26grams Byeshoke(sp). Something like 58 grains smokeless and 400 gr bullet. ??? Maybe as high as 70k psi? Lymans lists up to 37K, I think I'll be OK with Lyman's 3031 recipes. I sized a piece w/out the sizing ball, .305. Might be too tight, I need bullets. I can chuck up the ball and use sand paper to polish it down .005.

Both ejector sears are broken. I got one out, 5 hours to make a good one- 3rd time is the charm. I ground down an exacto knife blade to make a .140x .011" screwdriver. Heated with a soldering iron, soaked in WD 40, the little screws are TIGHT as well as little bitty slots.[/img]

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casebro
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:50 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego

Okay, top ejector fixed.It also limits the travel as extractor now, so bottom shell is easier to access for removal. Good to go for now.

Rifle ammo is in the works.

O/U shotgun barrels are full over Imp/Mod. Tight for clays,especially for the way I shoot. Trap tomorrow.

Now, scope adjustment? Zeiss 4x. No knobs on the side. Top knob has a lozenge shaped 'handle' in the middle, instead if a coin slot. And there is a knurled outer ring. I guess the 'handle' is elevation, is the outer ring windage? I didn't see any windage adj on the rail mount. I don't want to just start twiddling the knobs. Any Old Zeiss Pro (Altenzeissmacher?) here?

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casebro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:36 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego

[/img]

Zoomed and cropped, My hope is that if a person recognizes some words the sentence meaning will pop out of the scrawl?

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goathoof
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:16 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 226
Location: eastern oregon

This is an approximate german view of the "chicken scratches". My wife will be able to translate into english in the next day or so. She had to leave today before taking it into english.


FERNROHR: 10.5.32 Zieldialyt 4 x wird geliefert von: Gienther # 19355
Dieses Fernrohr welches auch auf dem beifolg. "Twiling"?(kann ich nicht lesen, weiss auch nicht was das ist) montiert ist, soll auch auf die vordere montiert werden. Die Fernrohrringe sollen wir schon am Pennrohr? anloeten.
Beide Gewehre sollen mit dem Fernrohr ueben die Ldg. (Ladung?) des 3.5 gr. 26 Zin.360.8 x 53

VERZIERUNG; ELFENBEINKORN # 32616 WUERFELVICIER, SILBERPERLKOM?

GRAVUR: einfach englisch Modell 200 E, nur unsere Firma

Laut Brief vom 10.5.1932 seine Fiorma auf beide Knaeufe gravieren.
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casebro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:16 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego

Good start.Tough when they ran phrases over into the next category. But your reading is sure better than mine. And also it's been 50 years since I flunked German. Not really, he gave me a D-, when I told him if he flunked me I would feel I had to take it again, and he was the only German teacher.Very Happy So after two years I speak it like a zwei jarh alt.

I'll tell you what I have now, with your help:

goathoof wrote:
...
FERNROHR: 10.5.32 Zieldialyt 4 x

Telescopic sight, date, 4x.

goathoof wrote:
wird geliefert von: Gienther # 19355

Ship with Gunther's other gun, #19255.(part of the engraving on the barrel is Heinr. Triebel, nachf. Carl Gunther, Augsberg)

goathoof wrote:
Dieses Fernrohr welches auch auf dem beifolg. "Twiling"?(kann ich nicht lesen, weiss auch nicht was das ist) montiert ist, soll auch auf die vordere montiert werden. Die Fernrohrringe sollen wir schon am Pennrohr? anloeten. Beide Gewehre sollen mit dem Fernrohr ueben die Ldg. (Ladung?)


Ich kann nicht vertsehen either. Something about the scope...substituted? mounting? "This scope, which is by the way mounted, is front mounted. With rings (some were soldered to bases) Again with the Fernrohr, scope. Probably 'shipped with'??

goathoof wrote:
des 3.5 gr. 26 Zin.360.8 x 53
Proof test data for the 8x57 barrel. (delta) has a meanng, Proof? 18 GRAMS of a certain powder, 26 gram bullet? They had names for bullets, steel jacket, bronze jacket,lead.

goathoof wrote:
VERZIERUNG; ELFENBEINKORN # 32616 WUERFELVICIER, SILBERPERLKOM?

Verzierung, sight, Elfenbeinkorn, Ivory. I thought the number was a price, it was preceded by somthinglike a dollar sign, what did they use for Deutches Reichts mark? Did "Wurfleiciier" mean Wholesale? Silberperkom- Silver plating? The 1931 catalogue mention something silver- silver washed?

(I think you skipped:
Einsheissen:("one shot"? Proof test? an alternative would be "sight", but the load info implies proof) for the shotgun barrels? 3 1/2 GRAMsn Special(powder), 26 gram Geschoke? a 1oz lead slug?

goathoof wrote:
GRAVUR: einfach englisch Modell 200 E, nur unsere Firma
Engraving,English style for the Model 200E, without back ground? (Lowest level of gun, the E means Ejector)

goathoof wrote:
Laut Brief vom 10.5.1932 seine Fiorma auf beide Knaeufe gravieren.
Maybe a proof date for the wholegun fit and finish, and noted that it was engaved as such? /

Anybod yelse care to add their two pfennigs?

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goathoof
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:51 am  Reply with quote
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This is a best attempt to translate to english. Others may interpret it somewhat different, but hopefully it will give you more insight to the scribbles.


Scope: 10.5.32 (10. May. 1932 ) Target dialed 4x

Delivered from: Gienther # 19355

Montage: ( Mounting ) This scope which also complies with Drilling is mounted, should also be mounted on the front. The scope rings should already be soldered on to the scope tube.

Visierung: ( Gunsight ) Both barrels with the scope, should be used/practiced with the load of 1.5 gm 26 gm. 360.8x53.

Ivorybead # 32626 engraved decoration/silver pearl ( the gunsight dot ?) Ivory bead gunsight.

Einschiessen: ( Calibration adjustment/sighting in) 3.5 gm. special powder ~ 26 gm load

ENGRAVING : simple English Modell 200 E, only/exclusive our company.

As per letter from 10.5.1932, (May 10, 1932) his company both plates are engraved.
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casebro
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:57 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego

goathoof wrote:
This is a best attempt to translate to english. Others may interpret it somewhat different, but hopefully it will give you more insight to the scribbles.


Scope: 10.5.32 (10. May. 1932 ) Target dialed 4x

Delivered from: Gienther # 19355

Montage: ( Mounting ) This scope which also complies with Drilling is mounted, should also be mounted on the front. The scope rings should already be soldered on to the scope tube.

Visierung: ( Gunsight ) Both barrels with the scope, should be used/practiced with the load of 1.5 gm 26 gm. 360.8x53.

Ivorybead # 32626 engraved decoration/silver pearl ( the gunsight dot ?) Ivory bead gunsight. eta:,dug the gun out of the safe, shotgun barrels set has Ivory bead, combination has blade front w/silver 'pearl' on back. I think we are used to gold/brass there. Silver might be better in low light?

Einschiessen: ( Calibration adjustment/sighting in) 3.5 gm. special powder ~ 26 gm load

ENGRAVING : simple English Modell 200 E, only/exclusive our company.

As per letter from 10.5.1932, (May 10, 1932) his company both plates are engraved.


Yes! Lots of better nuances!!

Lessse: Target dial on the scope (yup)

This gun to be shipped w/ Gunther's other order, #given, which I will presume is the drilling mentioned. The same scope fits both guns.Load given for the rifle barrels.

(I think you are mis-reading Gunther as Gienther. That is not a dot over an I, it's an umlaut over a U.This AM I did get the verification from Merkel that the engraving of Heinrich Treibel nachf Carl Gunther, Augsberg was the dealer. I cropped away the top margin where it says Treibel nachf. Gunther, Augsberg, without first names. Carl and Heinrich must have been known to the boys at Merkel. )

The custom engraving was done to both barrel sets.


Last edited by casebro on Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

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casebro
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:56 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego

The 1931 catalog has two loads listed for the 8jr.
Both use Rottweil #5 powder. 2.5grams w/ 14.7 gram steel jacketed bullet, 3 grams for the steel jacketed 10 gram bullet. (Is Rottweil now RWS?)

Grams-to-grains gives 38.6 & 46.3 for powder, 154 & 227 for bullets. Today factory loads seem to be 196 grains only. .318 bullets are available in umm, 150,170, and 196.

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casebro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:47 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego

The sears are broken at the catch. I managed to disassemble one side by making a screw driver blade from an exacto knife. .140 x .011. Other side will not co-operate. And re-assembling the one side, them mighty-mites are about 40 ft/lbs of torque. All I can twist on the exacto handle. I tried heating w/ soldering iron, penetrating, tap the screwdriver w/ a hammer to break loose the bond. I've had a lot of experience w/ rusted bolts in auto restoration projects. https://imageevent.com/bigchriscase/53powerwagon

About 5 hours to make a new sear-3rd time is the charm. I have some O-1, 1/2 x .125, had to mill it down to .110. It worked well just the iron, doesn't work with the wood on.

I E-Bay'ed a 'manual impact screwdriver', the kind we used to use to remove Phillips head screws on Yamahas. Only much smaller. NOT 1/2 square drive socket size, this one is only the 1/4" hex for screw bits. Grind down the smallest bit, clamp the fore end iron in the vise, and tap the driver with an 8oz hammer.Piece of cake. And the 4th attempt at filing out a sear only took an hour. All done.

And I loaded a box of 170 gr Soft point boat tails. 41.6 3031. Seated to the cannelure.

I seated an empty cartridge waaay long, inked the bullet, and jammed it in. Lands are about .100" longer than the cannelure. Plenty of room for a big roundy 220gr Moose load. Lots of bullet jump for the 170s. Too much?

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It's not how many breaths you take, it's how many times you have been breathless.

Dying with all ten fingers is like dying with money in the bank- you could have had more fun!
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ohiochuck
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:14 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 07 Jul 2014
Posts: 17
Location: Ohio

Casebro

Merkel 8X57 rifles made in in early 1930s have most likely a .318 bore but it is always best to slug the bore to be certain.
I have purchased my 8X57JR (.318) ammo from Graf & Sons (SELLIER & BELLOT AMMO 8x57 JR RIMMED 196gr SP)

What is almost unbelievable is that Merkel seems to have the build records for many of their firearms made before WW2.
Enjoy you new to you Merkel
Jim
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casebro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:10 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego

ohiochuck wrote:
Casebro

Merkel 8X57 rifles made in in early 1930s have most likely a .318 bore but it is always best to slug the bore to be certain.
I have purchased my 8X57JR (.318) ammo from Graf & Sons (SELLIER & BELLOT AMMO 8x57 JR RIMMED 196gr SP)

What is almost unbelievable is that Merkel seems to have the build records for many of their firearms made before WW2.
Enjoy you new to you Merkel
Jim


No need to slug it. First thing I did was borrow an 8mm .323 rimless Mauser round. It would not go in because the neck diameter was too big. So .318 it is.

No ammo in stock today. Besides, here in California ammo has to be purchased at FFLs. Might as well roll my own.

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Dying with all ten fingers is like dying with money in the bank- you could have had more fun!
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casebro
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:44 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego

Got it to the rifle range. 170 gr, spbt, 41.6gr 3031, 2546fps (QL data)

Cranked all the way up, it hit 18" low at 100y.

The 170 has about.090 jump, I suspect the gun is set up for 220gr round nose. But 18" low ?

Any input before I take the Makita to the claw mounts? Very Happy

eta: NUTTs: My scope serial number 64942, looks later. I'm not finding mfg date look-up, but Herman Goering's Merkel 201e w/ 3 barrel sets line card from1933 shows the gun serial # 5,000 higher than my 1932, and his scope is numbered 20,000 lower.(amazing what is on the net) IE, my scope is 20,000 later than 1933. So,scope is fitted to a different gun?

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Dying with all ten fingers is like dying with money in the bank- you could have had more fun!
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skeettx
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:50 pm  Reply with quote
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Heavier bullet for the 8x57IR
I use 196

4064 is a more suitable powder for that gun.

Should put you in center

Mike

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