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Carlos
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:16 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 May 2010
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Location: Victoria BC Canada

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:54 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2786
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Carlos,

I agree very good article on the 16 gauge guns. Lots of good points made about what happened as times changed and manufacturing refused to keep up with what the modern hunter really wanted.

For me a 16 gauge L.C. Smith double gun is the ultimate Grouse gun, no matter the size of the shells used. Carlos L.C. Smith does actually make an Ideal Grade 16 gauge double gun, its the entry level graded L.C. Smith gun, with rather plain engraving. Still a darn nice gun however.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man


16 gauge L.C. Smith #5 Gun, the stuff dreams are made of!



1800's J.P. Sauer Best 16 gauge Grouse gun, one sweet side lock 16 gauge double gun, 28" Krupp Barrels, 2 1/2" Chambers, DT, French Walnut Wood, gun weight under 6lbs.


Last edited by Pine Creek/Dave on Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:18 pm; edited 6 times in total

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 6:52 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

There are a few holes in the article, to be honest. I appreciate the sentiment greatly, but some editing errors/ omissions can be misleading, primarily the shot density stuff. The author(s) mention TSS at 18 grams/cubic centimeter, then rate lead at only 11 and just how much oomph that gives but then immediately mention bismuth 5's having about 200 pellets and how that makes such a lethal load...never mentioning that bismuth is about half way in density between steel and lead. We're mixing apples and oranges folks. This should have been better clarified. I am one to promote the 16 as much as anyone, but I want to set the facts straight when I do.

Lead, by the way was once claimed 12.3 grams per cubic centimeter. "Magnum" lead with 5% antimony rated 11.8. I noticed a recent Tom Roster piece also listed lead shot at only 11 recently as well. New figures claim lead at 11.29. Has Congress been altering the laws of gravity lately?

I know I am nit-picking, but the statement made about the other gauges is stretching things a bit too. I am old fashioned enough to believe that a solid case for the truth can always be made without questionable extrapolation. It's easier for an argument to stand on its own without such details that may cause some folks to discredit the whole.

The 3" chambering? Well, it would be useful for steel shot ammunition where the additional set back forces have no deforming/ fracturing effect on the hard pellets. Perhaps that could broaden the appeal to the general market. First, I would like to see a better variety of offerings for the 2 3/4" guns we already have...but that has already been discussed here lately.

At any rate, the 16 is still The King of the Uplands. Long live The King...and his visits to the marsh!

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robp
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 5:17 am  Reply with quote
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This is the type of BS the prevents me from purchasing sporting magazines
Useless article in my opinion
The 16 gauge is not the end all be all to upland hunting and shooting. I like my 16's,as well as my 10's,20's 28's and 410's
The best 16 gauges? Really ? Not knocking any other manufactures but deep down inside we really know which is the best. I'll give you two names Edwin Pugsley and John Olin
Very Happy
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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:49 am  Reply with quote
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The specific gravity of pure lead at room temperature is 11.34. That means its nominal density, disregarding the tiny variations of gravity with altitude on the surface of this planet, is 11.34 grams per cubic centimeter, which is about .410 pounds per cubic inch for we users of the Imperial units system.

Alloying lead with antimony to increase its hardness reduces the density from lead by about .2 grams/cm for each percent of antimony. Here are some typical density cases for the various lead/antimony alloys we shotgunners might encounter:

Pure lead (100%) 11.34 g/cc .410 lb/in^3

97% lead and 3% antimony 10.74 g/cc or .388 lb/in^3

94% lead and 6% antimony 10.14 g/cc or .366 lb/in^3

In comparison, the nominal density of pure Bismuth is 9.78 g/cc, but it isn't very useful for birdshot in pure condition. Alloying is necessary to make acceptable birdshot from bismuth, and this is mostly done with tin, and the shot typically comes out around 8.5 g/cc (.307 lb/ci). Most steels are around 7.83 g/cc (,283 lb/ci). Pure Tungsten is 19.3 g/cc, but shot made from it or incorporating it is made in a range of densities depending on the method.

The density of gold is also 19.3. Pure gold would probably make great shot. I'm certain that's what Goldfinger had in mind when he targeted Ft. Knox. Platinum is 21.45 and the most ductile of all metals. Silver at 10.49 is equivalent to lead for shotmaking -- it was, after all, good enough for The Lone Ranger, but Tonto probably got tired of going to town for more tarnish remover. Pure copper at 8.96 might do the job a lot better than a bismuth alloy, so melt down that bag of old pennies to reap their true value, but not the new shiny ones, which are 97.5% zinc and merely copper plated. All these pure metals (except tungsten) are soft enough for your steel or damascus barrels.
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:26 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

Nice blend of humor in there MS. I appreciate that, especially under my current situation (been quite ill). You bring up the option of copper. It seems sensible, except I seem to recall that back in the late 90's it failed one of the requirements to be considered a USFWS approved non toxic shot type? Anyone else recall reading this 30+ years ago?

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:05 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2786
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

WyoChukar,

Garhart I remember seeing the article and later Larry Brown addressed the subject also. I really did not pay much attention to the articles because here in Pa we use lead for almost everything except Ducks and Geese. I use Bismuth in my old Classic American guns now for any of that type gunning. I thought the copper coating was a good idea until they started using a cheap process that did not work very well. I believe Larry addressed this also.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:30 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

robp,

Although I like my 28 and 20 gauge guns real well, my views on the 16 differ greatly from yours. IMO the 16 is the top Grouse gun and the M21 is not that gun. For a box lock the gun is way to heavy and handles poorly, especially for the Grouse woods and no box lock gun IMO is a best gun of any type. I owned a 16 gauge M21, 16 gauge Skeet Gun, it was like a club compared to the Fox, LeFever or the L.C. Smith 16 gauge guns. When a M21 16 gauge double gun can swing and carry as nicely as a Fox, LeFever or L.C. Smith then the M21 might be in the running as a good Grouse gun, unfortunately even with its modern metals it was engineered way to heavy. Even the 20's are a might bulky and a little heavy. This is not to say the M21 is not a good gun, it is but not for the Grouse woods. The M21 would need a lot of refined engineering to compete with the Fox, LeFever or L.C. Smith guns in the Grouse woods. All any upland hunter needs to do is mount and swing the different guns to know which gun he really wants to bird hunt with. Further J.P. Sauer built a pre war 16 gauge Grouse gun on what us Americans call a 20 gauge frame, the engineering is just incredible, right down to the Krupp barrels, it is a German Best side lock double gun. I was lucky enough to acquire one of these 16 gauge double guns a few years ago, it has become one of my favorite Grouse guns.


all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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robp
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:19 pm  Reply with quote
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Taker her easy there Dave just giving a little crap to all the haters out there. I mentioned the 21 because it's the most hated side by side on the planet.
Personally I really like mine and I shoot it well and often at all kinds of game in the prairies, woods and fields of the mid upper mid west. I do pretty well with it. I own couple Foxes, some pretty nice euro side locks and some German guns. I will agree with you about the JP Sauers They are a great gun very well made and can take a lot of shooting. The Sauer was my go to last year next to the 21 both 16 gauges The foxes being my least favorite I just can't love them. I would never own a Smith if I had to pay for it.
I had the chance to shoot a couple 2 1/2, 12 gauge Brit guns that weighed in at a bit more than 6 pounds. All of them handled like a wand and had great dimensions. Honestly think that would be the perfect choice for the allusive Potter County ruffed grouse. Here in the upper mid west I manage to kill a few on the wing over my inbred german dogs with a fence post of a shotgun. Better to be lucky than good. Hell I even shot slugs out of it and killed a deer. Pretty sure that would reduce a Smith to a pile of splinters.
I do appreciate that you got my reference to Pugsley and Olin


Last edited by robp on Sun Aug 08, 2021 6:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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double vision
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 6:19 pm  Reply with quote
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It's really a shame that the 16 gauge doesn't have the traction it deserves. In my opinion it's the best all around upland gauge. At least we know the truth. Wink
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 6:24 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2786
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

robp,

Glad you like the J.P guns, they are definitely serious bird guns. Hay I never knew the M21 was a hated gun, I thought the modern youngsters reserved that for the L.C. Smith guns! Why do you not like the Fox guns, do they not fit you? Now to me the top guns are the Drop Lock Westly Richard 16 gauge, the pre 1910 Purdey 16 gauge self opener and the L.C. Smith 16 gauge #5, along with the J.P. pre War 16 side lock on the 20 gauge frame.

I am glad you like the M21 lots of people like them, if I was more of a Duck hunter or liked to shoot driven birds, I would probably like the M21 a lot more than I do. I always wanted Olin to build a more refined model of the M21 that handled and swung well in the Grouse woods, unfortunately it never happened. I got to say my Skeet gun was a well built gun, however I could never get use to it feeling like a club, and of course the weight was way out of proportion for a fine Grouse gun. Got to admit I used my skeet gun for shooting Lancaster County, Pa wild Pheasants quite a bit. Walking the flats with the heavy gun was ok, and there were lots of wild Pheasants to gun back then. Looking back I probably should have kept the gun, it is now worth a few bucks for sure. The only time the 16 M21 really ever got used was in Lancaster County so it got traded away.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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4setters
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 6:42 pm  Reply with quote
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WyoChukar's noting of TSS and Bismuth shot in the same short text is notable--they ain't even in the same ballpark. Probably an editorial problem, as he noted. I've written enough to know what an editor can do to context as they edit for brevity.

On the other hand, the total article is a reflection of today's media--controversy is paramount! I'm sure that a lot of the general hunting public that read the article will say, "BS" when it comes to the author's alleged superiority of the 16, but that sells mags as folks desire to hear from the experts. Perhaps a few will give the 16 a try however, particularly in this day of new guns flying off the shelf.

Keep in mind that the media has about a 15% positivity rate at present with the public.

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Given all the data on shot payloads, shot density, patterning, shot velocity, gun weights, and other data, ad infinitum, my 60 years of experience in the uplands tells me that the 16 gauge is the most suitable choice overall for quail and pheasant, my primary quarry, with lead shot. Non-tox, not so much with a 16, with current offerings for a variety of reasons, as all types have some deficiencies compared to lead. A 3 inch chamber and ammo would help this issue with a 16, mostly with waterfowl, but not totally cure it. Unless FWS goes to all non-tox, I have no need for a 3 inch 16.

The outdoor mags I read today are mostly those associated with conservation organizations such as RGS, QF, PF, NWTF, NRA, etc. As an avid reader, I read most of what is offered, but a lot is mediocre a best. And it seems that to make copy, a lot of the articles are way off in left field.

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1954 Win M12 IC
1952 Ithaca M37 Mod
1955 Browning Auto-5 Mod
1940 Ithaca NID M/F
1959 Beretta Silver Hawk
Ranger 103-II M/F
Browning A-5 Sweet 16
Browning Citori Invector
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oyeme
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:05 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 May 2011
Posts: 70
Location: Tampa, FL

The best 16 gauge that I should have bought was a Francotte Best Grade side lock over/under. It had around 29 inch barrels (metric measurement) and a solid rib that was so thin you could almost use it to slice cheese!

Lovely case colors, straight grip, double triggers, ejectors and almost unfired condition. A friend offered to sell it to me but I was a bit too destitute to make the purchase of $5,000 in 1992 dollars.

The scalloping of the frame and overall craftsmanship in that gun was just about as good as any maker ever made. Francotte high grade guns are exceedingly fine firearms!

I should have bought it, even if I had to walk to work for a year!
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:30 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2786
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Oyme,


Farncotte made some darn fine guns, my buddy Ken Graft has a beauty of a 16 in his private collection that I have threatened to walk off with. I have to agree that a lot of our hunting magazine are now orientated toward conservation rather than hunting. RGS was founded by a small group of Grouse hunters looking to make sure there were always enough Grouse to hunt properly. Now RGS is more of a Conservation group, they have taken one of the RGS tools and they are more devoted to conservation than Grouse hunting. Many members left RGS a while back because of this big change. I still belong, however I am no longer a big time Sponsor. It's just not the same RGS any more.

all the bst,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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Griffon
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:58 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Apr 2014
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Location: Maine

The prettiest gun in the world won't kill a grouse unless you're pointing it in the right direction. One of the best grouse shots I've ever hunted with used a beat up $150 pumpgun. Shoot what you like and shoot it well.

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