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Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 1310 Location: Western WA

I ready to throw in the towel on my much valued 1 oz loads. I’m running low on 800-X and it looks like suitable replacement powders are either out of stock or grossly overpriced.

HOWEVER…there is a firkin or half peck or whatever tub of Red Dot sitting on my back shelf that was generously bestowed to me by a since departed (and greatly lamented) close friend. I would dearly enjoy putting that powder to work, but circumstances seem to be causing me to descend from my formerly embraced 1 oz principles.

There doesn’t seem to be any 1 oz 16 ga Red Dot loads other than a few pedestrian pace 1150 FPS recipes. I’m looking for 1225+ FPS Red Dot loads. Perchance there may be a 7/8 oz 16ga Red Dot loads in that class. Can anyone advise on the existence of such?

TIA
B.

Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Posts: 2126 Location: Hudson,Wy

Surprisingly, it actually does exist. From Lyman's 3rd edition, the rare 1 oz. Red Dot load:

Federal 16 ga. hull
1 oz. lead shot
R16 wad (substitute SP 16 with filler?)
19 gr. Red Dot
CCI 109
Fold crimp
1325 fps
10,300 lup

This load could easily be backed down a grain for a little better manners, unless a hot one is what you are looking for. I recall reading somewhere that the CCI 109 and CCI 209 are interchangeable, perhaps someone will verify.

Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Posts: 2126 Location: Hudson,Wy

Here is another:

WW Comp. form hull
1 oz. lead shot
R16 wad
17.5 gr. Red Dot
CCI 109
Fold crimp
1210 fps
9,500 lup

Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Posts: 2126 Location: Hudson,Wy

Another 1 oz Red Dot load, from Alliant's 2005 edition:

Fiocchi hull
1 oz. lead shot
Fiocchi 616 primer
WAA16 wad
15.5 gr. Red Dot
1,165 fps
10,400 psi

This load may actually crimp better with the Claybuster "pink" wad.

10-4, CCI 109 and CCI 209 are the same primer.

Joined: 26 Apr 2010 Posts: 3177 Location: NCWa

A Hercules 1995 booklet doesn't show any loads lighter than 1 oz for the 16 ga, but it does show a few 1 oz Red Dot load,15.5 - 17 gr depending on components but it only lists at 1165 fps. interesting though, there are loads listed for 20 ga with Red Dot and 3/4 oz loads to 1200 fps. so considering the larger bore of the 16 compared to the 20, it appears there would be a workable load with 7/8 oz of shot that would be in the 1200+ velocity range .Not sure what it would be.

Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Posts: 2126 Location: Hudson,Wy

I also have some 7/8 oz data for 700-X. Many folks claim it interchanges with RD in terms of data. Oddly, I have found no 7/8 oz. data for Red Dot, not in 16 ga.

Joined: 09 Mar 2016 Posts: 755 Location: Mn.

I do not see any Red Dot 7/8 oz. loads in the spreadsheets either.

In 2015 there was a Red Dot thread on here, and putz463 listed a Red Dot load for 24 and 26 grams which is 7/8 oz.

http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16930

Pretty sure the tub of Red Dot you have is what we used to call a keg of powder which was\is the unit of measurement for them. They were 12 pounds. I purchased my last one in 1983 they stopped making them not long after that.

If your container of Red Dot looks like this anyhow, minus the Toller pup. Took that picture ~20 years after I bought that keg. It did take me 2 or 3 years to empty it back then.

I am afraid we all may have to rethink what grossly overpriced is anymore. I don't expect to find a 12 pound keg of Red Dot for less than $50 anymore. This summer paid $160 for a 8 pound keg of Green Dot. Don't expect that to ever happen again either. $20 a pound is considered a killer deal today if you could ever find it.

Hodgodon sells direct now although you will have to check the site for the powder you want several times a day. It is usually sold out in an hour or less. And you will pay MSRP plus hazmat and shipping for it. Last week I scored two 8 pound kegs of Universal. Total was $454 or $28 a pound all in delivered to my door. Any time I can get powder $25-$30 a pound all in I will get it if I need it. At least in todays market situation.

Lead is the highest component cost and has been for quite a few years. Back when it first started up over $9.99 a bag I knew a lot of people that said if it hits $15-20 a bag they would stop shooting. It is now $50 a bag if you can find it yet most of those guys are still shooting. If they are alive yet and have their health.

Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 1310 Location: Western WA

Load Extrapolation -- Pursue this at your own risk. This method has been very successful for me to get very close to satisfactory loads:

First, the square of the ratio of bore sizes is a pretty good indicator of equivalent internal ballistics to launch a load of shot, the weight of which is also proportional to the square of the bore ratios, to achieve the same muzzle velocity. That's a mouthful, isn't it. Examining that proportion helps determine appropriate powder type, i.e. if the above proportions are maintained, say between two different bore sizes, the same powder is appropriate for the extrapolated load. Additionally, to arrive at a good starting point for the powder charge necessary to consider the ratio of the muzzle energy of the intended extrapolated load to that from which one is extrapolating. That will be, by the way, also proportional to the square of the ratio of the bores. Here's how it works:

If you are trying to estimate, lets say a 1200 fps 7/8 ounce shotshell load for the 16 gauge, and you have load data for the 12 gauge that produces about 1200 fps, with various shot charges, first find the square of the ratio between the 16 and the 12. Nominal 16 gauge bore is 0.662" and for the 12 it is 0.729". The square of the ratio between these is 0.825. The significance of that is that with the same basic pressure profile experienced by the shot (actually not an unreasonable assumption considering use of the same powder in a hull of very similar design), a 16 gauge load weighing 0.825 oz, will achieve the same muzzle velocity as that of a 1 ounce load in the 12 gauge. Following that same ratio and the same powder and hull assumptions, the internal ballistics of a 7/8 ounce load in the 16 will behave like a 12 gauge load of 1.061 oz -- about 1 1/16 oz. Clearly, a powder used for a 1 1/8 ounce load in the 12 gauge will be appropriate for a 7/8 ounce load in the 16.

Now, how much powder should we use? Think of smokeless powder as energy. It is a fuel. Fuel quantities are energy quantities -- Btu's, Calories, ft-lb, etc. All those are energy units. Gun powder, gasoline, rocket fuel, coal ... you name it ... it has a specific energy content. The more you burn, the more energy you have released. So now we compare muzzle energies of these two loads. Keep in mind both are assumed to have the same muzzle velocity. That was the intent of the extrapolation, but one could alter that and account for it, but it is largely unnecessary to vary much from 1200 fps for lead loads in shotshells, as that is really a very typical and effective velocity. Muzzle energy equals 1/2 the mass of the shot times the square of the velocity. Well we already know the square of ratios of the masses in this case is 0.825. We also already assumed the velocities are the same. Therefore, the muzzle energy of the 16 gauge load will be 0.825 times that of the 12 gauge case. That means you need about 0.825 times the powder charge used in that 12 gauge load from which you are extrapolating.

Let's try it: Here's a 12 gauge load from Alliant: Cheddite hull, Cheddite primer, 19.5 grains of Red Dot, RXP12 wad, 1200 fps at 8800 psi peak pressure. Here's another but at 1 ounce: Same hull, primer, powder and muzzle velocity, slightly different wad, producing 1200 fps at 7800 psi. We don't really have a 1 1/16 ounce load for comparison which would be almost perfectly comparable to the 7/8 ounce 16, but these are close, so lets take the conservative route ad assume 19 grains of Red Dot would do the job. So 0.825 times 19 gives about 15.7 grains. I'd start with this:

Cheddite Hull -- because most of our 16 gauge hulls are actually of the Euro type, and Cheddite, Fiocchi, or Martignoni (Nobel Sport) are all so similar they make basically zero difference in load performance one to the other, all else being equal.
Cheddite or W209 or CCI209 primer -- you don't need a hot primer to ignite a little bit of Red Dot.
15.5 grains of Red Dot
Some wad that fits the load, preferrably a Gualandi, Cheddite or B&P so it seals better on the hull.

Results? Shoot it over a chronograph. How does it sound? Adjust it if you like. Send it to Tom Armbrust for testing -- whatever blows your hair back! Pressures? If one extrapolates from a load with reasonably safe pressures, he can expect pressures in the new load somewhere in the same neighborhood -- that was the basis of the extrapolation idea. Could the pressures be higher? In this case they'd have to be about 20 percent higher to get to 10,000 psi. SAAMI max for the 2 3/4 inch 16 is 11,500. Your gun can likely withstand twice that -- at least 50% more. I doubt I am likely to exceed SAAMI max pressures for my extrapolations. I do admit I haven't ever had one of mine pressure tested yet. . . . Hey! What's that I smell!? Are you guys flamin' my a55 already! Embarassed

Well, I guess I deserved that.

Where does this method start to fail? "Everywhere!", say the naysayers. Laughing

But seriously, it's pretty conservative if you pay attention to details of similar hull, wad, crimp, etc. It probably breaks down as one extrapolates to a large difference in bore size, due to other factors governing where the energy of the powder all goes. I'm talking about friction, barrel heating, etc, and that the the energy in the powder probably doesn't go to the same places in the same proportions as bore size changes. I extrapolate 24 gauge loads, for instance, from a consideration of both 20 and 28 gauge loads. I would never extrapolate a 24 gauge load from a 12 or 10 gauge load. Frankly, with all the published data for 12, 20 and 28, why would one want to extrapolate loads for anything other than the 24, or even less so, the 16. Personally, though I have analyzed it, I would never mess with .410 loads. Again, there is scant need to do so.

One could also check the sensibility of a 16 gauge load extrapolated from one in 12 gauge by extrapolating one from the 20 gauge for comparison. I'll leave this as an exercise for the student. Smile

Cheers!
Tony

Joined: 09 Mar 2016 Posts: 755 Location: Mn.

Member Joined: 06 Oct 2007 Posts: 2349 Location: West MI

Lymans 4th has one published, Fed hull, CCI209, 19grn RD, Waa16, 1oz lead, 1243, 10.3kLUP. I've never loaded it so can't share anything about it.

Been using my 23grain short range target recipe for years, although a little slower than you're looking for. Tom Armbrust tested in 2016. I use Promo & RD interchangeably BY WEIGHT.

As tested, Ched 2 9/16" (RST), 14gr Promo or RD, SG16, 23grain lead, 6 fold, Avg, 1114fps, 7240psi, EV 35, 600 respective. I use the 2 9/16" length RST or cut down Cheds (w/Byrdogs hull cutting gem) because it fits perfectly w/o filler. The 2 3/4 hulls needed a Cheerio or 2.

Seeing the pressure had a bit of headroom I jazzed it up to 15gr (untested) and the leads/TTT/breaks/etc fit my eye and patterns responded well to choke changes + the quick burning powder(s) work great in my short barreled Upland Special and equally well in the other longer guns so stuck with it.

Best of luck with it, Use at your own risk....

Aside; I have one of those cardboard RD Puppy holders, anyone want it, pay the shipping and it's yours. Also 2-3 Herco & RD metal #3'er's w/handwritten $9 on one. Shocked

Same, you pay shipping it's yours.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1843 Location: Central ND

Brewster11,

There are some Red Dot loads for 1 oz. that were originally published using the lead crusher method that are no longer published using the piezo transducer method. 700-X has some similar history.

Anyway, I wanted a 7/8 oz. 700-X load in 16 gauge for targets that would cycle my 1100 and generate between 1250 and 1300 FPS.

I ended up having Precision test this load and here is the load and results:

Federal 2 3/4" w/paper basewad hull
Winchester 209 primer
16.0 grains 700-X
DownRange DR 16 wad
7/8 oz. lead shot
Crimp depth .060" - .065"

FPS - 1260, SD - 11 FPS, ES - 30 FPS

PSI 8,163, SD - 470 PSI

I believe that Red Dot will give similar results.

I used 16 gauge data 1 oz. that is already published added 1 grain of powder and sent in the load.

For Red Dot I am thinking 15 to 16 grains will get it done.

It is very interesting how the previous posts come so close to this old 1964 reloading info from a Lee Hand loading insert. Great knowledge from this site!

Member Joined: 09 Jan 2013 Posts: 2169 Location: Florida

Mark that's a nice looking load, I have quite a bit of 700x and Dr16 wads . I going to load some and give them a try.

Thank for sharing that !