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stevesavage
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:12 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Apr 2017
Posts: 150

I have a Lefever side plate double, 16 gauge 2& 9/16 chambers, and solid steel barrels. How strong is it compared both to Smiths, Ithaca, and other contemporary shotguns and to modern doubles. Is it safe to shoot? Thanks in advance
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Jta5er
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:45 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 22 May 2020
Posts: 266
Location: Ky

Show some pics of your gun.
Also when Damascus barrels are blued they look the same as fluid steel barrels.
Pics of barrel marks may help also serial number someone may tell manufacturer date with serial and help with what barrels you have. Always have competent gun maker look and measure befor you shoot 100 year old guns!
But someone here may be able to confirm fluid or not with pics, maybe.
Any 16ga lefever that’s a shooter is a fine gun to own.

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Swampy16
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:04 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Oct 2019
Posts: 453
Location: New Jersey

At least have the wall thickness measured. Make sure the barrels ring and don’t go thud.
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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:42 am  Reply with quote
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Location: Glendale, AZ

Steve: a 16g Lefever is a joy and wonder, but your gun may be 100 years old and no one on the internet can tell you if it is safe.
Please look under the General Discussion FAQs here "Is my gun safe to shoot"
https://lcsca.clubexpress.com/content.aspx?page_id=274&club_id=43784

There is also load advice in the "Shotshells and Shooting" FAQ.

There is a thread in General Discussion regarding the current difficulty in finding short 16g loads now.
As you know, the 2 3/4" shell length refers to the hull after shooting. Some modern 16g shells are shorter than 2 3/4" and you might measure some Fiocchi empties.

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stevesavage
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:47 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Apr 2017
Posts: 150

The shotgun is in good shape, serial number in 41000 range, soldering good, barrels steel not Damascus. It is very trim and lightweight, just over six pounds. I was wondering if Lefever side plate guns in general are considered strong shotguns compared to other good doubles of its day
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Jta5er
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:59 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 22 May 2020
Posts: 266
Location: Ky

I used a 20 gauge h grade with Carmen steel barrels from 1912, 2.5 inch for several years. I loaded my own at 8k psi or less back then. You need to have bores look at and measured, quite a few have been monkied with over past 100 or so years. I like Dean at skeets gun shop for barrel work. Blowing your fingers off is bad but killing the human next to you is worse! Always have them checked out.

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Swampy16
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:59 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Oct 2019
Posts: 453
Location: New Jersey

I’ll second Dean Harris. He’s a true barrel master. PS, I’d put Lefever up there with any of the top American makers as far as quality and durability. They were true masters of their craft and are one of my favorite American doubles. I long for a light weight 16. I had a beautiful F grade 12 but the barrels were thinner than I’d have liked. I wasn’t worried about them bursting but afraid of me denting them grouse hunting.
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UncleDanFan
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:27 pm  Reply with quote
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I've owned a bunch (my current Lefever is damascus gun however), and as long as the wall thickness is good, Lefever krupp steel barrels were as good as any other. I certainly wouldn't worry about shooting 1oz 2.5"loads in it if it checks out.

Just for grins, here's my current 12 Lefever, which I've owned for about ten years now. It's a one of a kind special order gun with a serrated wood butt (only one like it I've ever seen), that weighs 6.6lbs with 30" damascus barrels, choked light mod/light full. Feels like an xx small frame 16, except for the slightly wider frame and barrels. It's a dream to shoot.


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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:07 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

They compare favorably with the other guns mentioned (own or owned Smith, Ithaca, Fox, etc). I put mine through a lot of use until I partially broke the stock during a chukar hunting incident involving a snow drift up to my armpits. I need to replace the stock so I can put the gun back into use. Other than my Cogswell, the Lefever has been my favorite 16 for daily use.

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Dave in Maine
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:57 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Sep 2010
Posts: 1972
Location: Maine

What RevDocDrew said. (I consider him the resident expert on Damascus, BTW.)

The long and the short of it is, all those Lefevers were made 100 or more years ago. There is absolutely no way of knowing what shells were run through that gun, how it was treated or anything else. Regrettably, they can't talk.

That said, a good gunsmith can tell a lot about a gun and give a solid estimate of the gun's suitability and safety. Note that I said "estimate" - there's always something that can go wrong.

By way of example, this past summer I bought an old Baltimore Arms double, damascus barrels, etc. Baltimore Arms was A.H. Fox's company with Frank Hollenbeck and Fox's dad before Fox started what was first called The Sterlingworth Company, later known as the Fox Gun Co. I was a bit worried - damascus! old! old wood! - and took it over to my friend the gunsmith. He specializes in sxs. (I bought a homemade cherry creme tart, too. It went over exceptionally well.) He and I spent a couple hours on it, going over it with the proverbial fine-toothed comb. The only thing "out of order" was that someone had opened the chambers to 3 inches (!) and opened the left barrel choke to where it was slightly more open than the right. Someone's gun for ducks coming in on decoys, we figured. Other than that the action had never been opened - built circa 1904 and the screws are pristine. Original buttplate, the works. Locks up tighter than tight. Just a old well-cared-for gun.

I seriously lucked out on this one, no question. I figure I know enough to not buy a pig in a poke, but I've had some years to get educated. As it is I'm going to limit this gun to low-pressure/low-recoil loads and no 3 inch Roman Candles.

You could just as easily, if not more easily, have bought into a gun not suitable to be shot. Bubba the Master Gunsmith (self-anointed) could have spent some time inside it. Some genius may have honed all those pits out of the barrels, or whatever.

The only way to get a good feel for it, is to take it to someone who knows old doubles. This is Not likely to be the guy who builds black rifles like they're model airplanes and calls himself a gunsmith. Spend the time and spend the money on a professional. Even then, limit yourself to low-pressure and low-recoil loads.

Lest your gun wind up like another one my friend has in his shop - an LC Smith he's restocking after the present owner blew up a barrel, and the stock with it. It's a 2-barrel set, so it'll still be shootable. The angels smiled on that owner - he supposedly emerged unhurt from that adventure.

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Swampy16
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:49 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Oct 2019
Posts: 453
Location: New Jersey

UncleDanFan wrote:
I've owned a bunch (my current Lefever is damascus gun however), and as long as the wall thickness is good, Lefever krupp steel barrels were as good as any other. I certainly wouldn't worry about shooting 1oz 2.5"loads in it if it checks out.

Just for grins, here's my current 12 Lefever, which I've owned for about ten years now. It's a one of a kind special order gun with a serrated wood butt (only one like it I've ever seen), that weighs 6.6lbs with 30" damascus barrels, choked light mod/light full. Feels like an xx small frame 16, except for the slightly wider frame and barrels. It's a dream to shoot.


My God ! That gun is as sweet as they come !!! I had a really nice F grade for a while but Bubba got hold of it at some point and the wall thickness was too thin for grouse hunting. I was afraid of denting it. A lot of people feel you need to hone pitted barrels. I disagree. If you have pitted barrels have them looked at by a pro. If none of the pits are deep just leave it alone. Why remove metal is my thought. But they definitely need to be looked at. I dream of one day having a light 16 or 20 like yours but with modern dimensions which likely means it needs restocking. What are the dimensions on yours? No, I’m not asking you to sell it, lol.
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stevesavage
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:51 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Apr 2017
Posts: 150

Very good and interesting information. I can’t understand why anyone would lengthen the chambers on such an old gun to 3 inches. It would be interesting to know how the barrel on the LC Smith and it’s stock were busted. Any idea what happened?
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stevesavage
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:05 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Apr 2017
Posts: 150

Very good and interesting information. I can’t understand why anyone would lengthen the chambers on such an old gun to 3 inches. It would be interesting to know how the barrel on the LC Smith and it’s stock were busted. Any idea what happened?
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Researcher
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:17 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 695
Location: WA/AK

Quote:
I can’t understand why anyone would lengthen the chambers on such an old gun to 3 inches.


At the time these guns were being built the makers would chamber them for any length shell the customer wanted. Our ammunition manufacturers offered loaded 12-gauge paper shells in 2 5/8, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, 3 & 3 1/4 inch; 16-gauge in 2 9/16, 2 3/4, 2 7/8 & 3-inch and 20-gauge in 2 1/2, 2 3/4, 2 7/8 and 3-inch. The longer shells didn't offer heavier payloads, but rather more/better wadding which many gun cranks believed important.

Also, the heaviest 12-gauge shells that were offered, 3 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 28-grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite pushing 1 1/4 ounces of shot were actually higher pressure than modern day SAAMI specs. The introduction of progressive burning smokeless powder, high velocity, loads in the early 1920s moved out that 1 1/4 ounce load at higher velocity but lower pressure of the old bulk or dense smokeless powder loads.

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Dave in Maine
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:03 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Sep 2010
Posts: 1972
Location: Maine

What Researcher said, plus one thing: this gun came from rural Maine, where "the man with one gun" was the hunter most frequently encountered. The gun is actually a bit heavy - even though it has 26 inch barrels - and my gunsmith friend and I are pretty solid in the opinion some prior owner used it for incoming waterfowl. So, Yankee Frugality being a way of life here, opening the chambers to 3 inches was something the local Real Gunsmith* could do for a couple gallons of hard cider or quarts of maple syrup. It probably took place decades ago and grandpa shot a whole slew of ducks with it back when you could use lead shot like the Good Lord Intended.

A guy I know told me, when he bought his house, he discovered the window that looked out at the apple trees in the back yard had powder burns on the windowsill. I'm betting that was a possibility with this gun. Like I said, too bad they can't talk.


* I helped clean out the house and shop of one of those old country gunsmiths, when he left it in his Will to a statewide charity. You would have been amazed at some of the stuff that came out of there. The variety of parts, of tools and materials was mind-boggling. There was a bottle of powdered silver metal - for real silver soldering - and a small flask of mercury - for removing bullets stuck in barrels. I heard that was a headache to get properly disposed. But that guy could actually gunsmith....

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