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df
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:46 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 962
Location: Minnesota

What frame were model 12 16 ga guns built on?
We’re there any higher grade model 12s made, or all standard?[/quote]
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Researcher
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:46 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 695
Location: WA/AK

There were two Model 12 frame sizes, one for the 12-gauges and the other for 16-, 20- and 28-gauge.

For many years the Model 12 was offered in four grades, Standard Grade, Tournament Grade, Trap Grade and Pigeon Grade which was engraved. During the 1930s the Tournament Grade and Trap Grade were phased out and the Trap Gun, the Skeet Gun and the 12-gauge 3-inch Model 12 Heavy Duck was introduced as well as a Pigeon Grade that wasn't engraved.

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Lloyd3
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:41 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Jan 2014
Posts: 1365
Location: Denver, Colorado

I just took possession of a circa 1927 (SN 487...) Standard Grade M12 in 16. Not quite as light as my circa 1913 M12 in 20, but still way lighter than a comparable M12 in the more-standard 12-bore. I had planned on a major re-do of this gun but upon further examination, all it really needs is a good cleaning and some minor stock work (the toe is broken off). It never ceases to amaze me when I examine one of these mass-produced and at one time very common weapons. The build quality is simply over the top. Nickel steel is outrageous stuff (100,000 PSI tensile strength) and the Winchester Proof steel that followed it (in 1932) is rated at something like 120,000 PSI(!). Almost all the other common gun steels of the period were in the 70 to 80,000 PSI range. These guns simply don't wear out, they just get dirty and gummed-up and then the wood starts to looks tough. An amazing value and an enduring, dependable firearm, no question.

This gun is somewhat under the ~500,000 serial number cut-off for having the 2 3/4-inch chambers, so I'm figuring on it needing to use the shorter shells but...we'll have to see (it is remotely possible that it already has the more modern 2 3/4-inch chamber length). If not, the ejection port could certainly be opened-up to allow for more-modern ammunition use but....I hesitate to do so. They're only original once. We'll have to see where this current ammo shortage goes in the near-term before I would consider doing anything like that to it. I still have a good supply of 2 1/2-inch 16-gauge shells and I've read that some of the modern Remington 16-gauge loads are surprisingly compatible with the 2 9/16-inch chambered guns.

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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:18 am  Reply with quote
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Location: Minnesota and Florida

+1 on all points of your post, Lloyd3.

Standards of product quality have changed quite a bit over the last 50 or 60 years. Stuff's got to be built to a price point today, and consumers have been trained (mostly by unavailability of quality goods) to accept lower and lower quality in just about every thing and service we buy. Possibly this is due to a perceived lower socioeconomic situation in a large segment of the population/market. That's one result of a nanny state mentality - entitlement feelings, high minimum wage, attempts to provide equal results in life for lesser effort, the idea gov't will take care of everything, etc. Maybe we're on the long, slippery highway to hell . . . or maybe quality will make a resurgence. It has happened in some areas -- usually quality is more important to competitiveness in the emerging higher tech areas, or the smaller specialty markets, such as for good high price/value/quality level shotguns for just one example. Actually, there is always room for quality. Hard as it is for a brainwashed market to "speak" or demand quality, it must for quality to exist.

The word quality is a bit misunderstood, too. Quality is not luxury. Quality is when the thing you use performs as you expect, not more, nor less. For instance, if you expect to throw out your inexpensive kitchen pots/pans etc. every now and then, and the stuff you buy lasts about as long as you like, then it's quality stuff. So I'm not calling everything out there non-quality. But when retailers push prices ever lower, the market inevitably winds up with no choice other than lower quality products. Despite what one retailer tells you in his slogan, ultimately it is impossible to get more and better for less. There is always a piper to be paid. Having no other choice, the market -- the customer -- eventually forgets what a good product should do -- they have no reference to see why it might be worthwhile to to pay more. For example, it is very difficult to find a good bath towel nowadays, one that truly dries you off. I know that seems like an astonishing statement, but you may have taken towels for granted. Good towels as one example, just aren't made anymore. Because the manufacturer cannot supply better towels to the big-box retailers at the price those retailers think they need to be competitive, it's not just the desire to manufacture better towels that has disappeared, but the very technique has also. Large centralized retailers or manufacturers are the road to the death of choices. That fact is as old as the hills. It happened in railroads, in oil, in explosives (duPont, for we gunpowder guys), etc. It takes some risk to overturn the roadblocks to better choices. Hopefully the world will have more risk-takers.

Needless to say, I love Model 12's and some other guns and things of that era -- regular everyday stuff made so well . . . . well enough to last multiple lifetimes . . . and that's another problem that drives manufacturers to lower quality/planned obsolescense.

Cheers!
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Researcher
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:06 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 695
Location: WA/AK

The Winchester Catalog No. 83, 1925, states the 20-gauge is chambered for 2 1/2 inch shells and the 16-gauge is chambered for 2 9/16 inch shells. The Game, The Gun, The Ammunition Winchester booklet which is undated states "The 20 gauge Model 12 is now chambered to handle standard 2 3/4 inch shells." No mention of the chambering of the 16-gauge. By the 1931 Winchester catalog both 20- and 16-gauges are said to be chambered for 2 3/4 inch shells.

In 1920, Remington brought out their John M. Browning designed Model 17 in 20-gauge, made for 2 3/4 inch shells and offered with 26-, 28-, 30- and 32-inch barrels. In his 1923 book, gun writer E.C. Crossman praised that gun and roundly chastised the 20-gauge pump only made for 2 1/2 inch shells and in limited barrel lengths.

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Lloyd3
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:01 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Jan 2014
Posts: 1365
Location: Denver, Colorado

I've owned both Model 17s and many Model 12s and admire both, almost equally. I have evolved to using doubles almost exclusively for my bird hunting, but....I still have a soft spot for a good American pump gun. Model 17s in 16 gauge don't exist, but the pre-war Model 37s do and those are likely my favorite at the moment. We'll see how this new M12 works out though...

Max Smoke: True quality seems to feel like a luxury anymore as it is so-seldom encountered. Monopolies always limit choice and indeed hamper quality. We are, sadly, headed down that slippery slope in many areas at the moment, it seems. The Nanny State (and even the Administrative state) are expanding rapidly so...God help us all.

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Researcher
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:52 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 695
Location: WA/AK

To my eyes the Ithaca Model 37 with its slab-sided receiver just looks cheap. The Remington Model 17 with the boss at the front and back of the receiver looks so much better. And, the boys and girls at Ilion seemed to get a better shape on the grip and the head of the stock than they ever did at Fall Creek. The differences may not be 1/8 inch but it makes a big difference to my eyes.

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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:20 am  Reply with quote
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+1 Researcher. I share your sentiments on the Ithaca 37. It's an OK gun, but I much prefer the Model 17. Mine is a 30 incher, with a solid rib. The rib is nice -- it's tapered from wide at the action to narrower at the muzzle. Looks great. Model 17's are super smooth and light. This one is my second. I'm sorry I sold the first one -- shot a lot of ducks a a few geese with it in my late teens and early 20's.

Model 12's? I have 3 field grade Model 12's in 16, all from different eras, 3 in 20 gauge, one of them a black diamond 30" Trap, and 2 in 12 gauge, my discretely customized, lightened and upgraded Heavy Duck, (Winchester feather crotch straight stock wood from a Trap Grade, backbored, forcing coned and choke tubed by Briley.) and the other a first year Tournament Grade. A 28? -- who knows, it could happen, but I'm probably closer to the time for divestiture than I am to further acquisitions. Besides, I'm zeroing in on classic rifles . . . God knows why I'm building a couple of them right now. I guess it's all part of my continuous education program. Wink
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8mmFan
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:31 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2007
Posts: 203

For me, there never has been a grip on a shogun that equals that on the old Nickel steel model 12’s. The PoW round knob on the Browning’s comes close, but that slender, wonderful grip of the old Model 12’s is the best on any shotgun, anywhere, as it pertains to me.

8mmFan
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salish
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:06 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Oct 2015
Posts: 94
Location: seattle, wa

Very interesting conversation. I have two Model 12's in 16ga that I picked up maybe 20 years ago. Both are nickel steel guns, one made in 1914 and the other in 1917. I had the 1914 gun modified to take 2-3/4" shells and had the ejection port slightly lengthened to allow for positive ejection. I had the full choke opened to a light-mod constriction. It's my go-to gun for chukar hunting in Washington. I decided to leave the 1917 gun in it's original condition, so it still has the original chamber and full choke. It has a solid rib. I had traded an old Ithaca Flues for a 1950's Model 12 in 16ga, which I liked, then I shot my dog trainer's nickel steel Model 12 16ga. It was almost like shooting two different shotguns. The older gun fit me like a glove and just felt so much better. The 1950's gun went on the auction block.
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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:52 am  Reply with quote
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First shot from a Model 12 was in 1958 at age 6. It was Dad's old Tournament Grade 12 gauge he bought on the way home after his discharge from the Air Force (USAAF) shortly after the nuclear bombs were dropped. I was a very small kid. Since I couldn't hold the gun up to shoulder it, Dad had me rest it on the pasture fence. I aimed at a cow pie. The recoil knocked me on my butt, which was a source of great mirth to Dad, but I hit the target. None of this ever discouraged me. I was born a gun nut.

According to family lore, my first shot was with the Colt 1911 .45 Auto (straight 11 not an A1) Dad carried in WWII. That particular gun was first issued in WWI and then re-issued in WWII. I still have that gun and use it to qualify for my carry permits. Anyway, I was only 4 years old, and on recoil, the gun hit me in the head -- I guess comedy has always been my game, and guns abusing me is a tradition. Anybody want to buy my .416 Rigby and rescue me? I've never hit myself in the head with that one, though . . . yet.
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