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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:19 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Gentlemen,

If you have the time peruse page 85 in John Houchins the Legend Lives L.C. Smith Book. The L.C. Smith 1886 Descriptive price list on page 85, details the Syracuse guns starting from the Quality No. 2 thru the Quality No. 7 gun. When it gets down to the Quality No. 7 Gun it simply states. Quality No. 7 - Unequaled by any European or American Gun manufacturer. Very few of these Quality No. 7 guns were made, in 10, 12, or 16 gauge. The Step Plate Quality No. 7 L.C. Smith was simply the finest Side Lock gun of its time.
Little is known about the guns, each individually made to order as an executive type gun, with all origination documents shipped to the purchaser. Some SN numbers maybe listed in the Cody Museum. Historians have been fighting about the actual number of these fine guns, the truth is nobody really actually knows. If you have had one of these fine guns passed down thru you're family, consider yourself owning one of the finest guns ever made.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Syracuse Quality No. 7 Step Plate L.C. Smith unequaled by any Euro or American gun manufacturer 1886. The finest engravers in the world worked on these Quality No 7 guns, Spangler bothers, Jacob Glahn, Kraus and Mason. The later 1894 Quality N0. 7 guns were even more highly engraved by the same men.

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skeettx
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:08 pm  Reply with quote
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How much does it weigh? he he he

Merry Christmas

Mike

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:20 am  Reply with quote



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Skeettx,

Weight was in the 8.75 Lb range for a 10 gauge, 8.25 Lb range for a 12 gauge and 7. 25 Lb for 16 gauge. Now this all depended on the Wood chosen and whether the gun was ordered with Stubb Twist, Damascus, Sir Joseph or Krupp Steel barrels. All were available. Also all these Quality No. 7 guns were built on a Regular frame in those manufacturing years. L.C. Smith would build a heavier 10 gauge Quailty No. 7 gun at the same price they built the 12 gauge gun. Noted on Page 85 in John Houchins Legend Lives Book. However back in 1886 the starting price was $450.00 and depending on what barrels and wood a sportsman chose it could be a $1,000 gun on delivery.

There were very few sportsman in the 1800's who could afford to spend this kind of money on a fine double gun. Although these guns were sold to the Railroad owners/Manufacturers, Steel Manufactures, and other wealthy business men in both the USA and Europe.

Merry Christmas,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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Researcher
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:28 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
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Location: WA/AK

How is that gun any better than an Optimus or $1000 Grade Lefever? A Remington Special? A generation later Parker Bros. Invincible?

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:43 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Researcher,

The L.C. Smith is a Side Lock double gun, all the guns you listed are simple Box Lock Engineering. Further I was quoting from the L.C. Smith 1886 Desciption of their early guns, page 85 The Legend Lives.

Your personal preference may differ. Mine however do not.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:17 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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Location: Hudson,Wy

After working on and repairing a wide variety of doubles, I actually think the box lock has some distinct advantages. That said, given a chance for any gun out there, if I could afford it...would be a Westly Richards "drop lock".

The best gun of it's time? The Syracuse #7 is amazing. I won't go so far as to say it was the absolute best, especially considering British offerings, but it is one of the few guns that does belong in that very small group of hand built guns.

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nj gsp
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:20 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Aug 2007
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Location: WI

$1000 in 1886 is the equivalent of $29,500 today.

Makes those CSMC guns seem a little less pricey by comparison...
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:25 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

WyoChukar,

I do agree the Westley Richards Drop Lock maybe the ultimate double gun engineering design, and it was being developed around that time also. Taking the Westley Richards side lock engineering off of the internal side locks, and engineering them into the bottom of the Breech work, and eventually deigning a trap door to access the DT or SST, for repair and replacement, was perhaps the ultimate side lock engineering design. Westley Richards then jeweled the drop lock engineering to match the L.C. Smith Side Locks. Incredible Engineering Design, no doubt about it. Westley had some engineering kinks to work on its 1st engineering Drop Lock design, but eventually profected it. My buddy Galen owns a 16 gauge that is just incredible, love to own one some day myself.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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Researcher
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:30 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
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I am not at all mechanical, but just to stir the pot here, some quotes on the L.C. Smith design from one of our top American double gun smiths (restored the Peary gun) --

"Once one has seen actual high quality, it becomes difficult to make excuses for guns like the Smith. Once one disassembles an L.C. Smith for the first time, the level of Rube-Goldbergian design readily becomes apparent. To wit,

- a toplever spindle that is supported by the removable triggerplate at the bottom and held in place by a wholly inadequately sized screw

- wood that the gun simply can not spare is removed to make room for the toplever spindle, leaving two narrow vertical webs to transmit all recoil forces through the stock, this entire area is solid in any Holland-pattern sidelock

- both iterations of the safety mechanism are poorly thought-out and sloppily made

- the cocking system is an answer to a question that nobody asked, and it's not a good one

- the first-type ejectors must have seemed like a clever idea at the time

- the agri-locks, I'm sure that someone will post a photo of the lock from and A2 or some such and say how they're the equal of anything English, German, etc….. they're not, not even with the jeweling and "fancy" bridle

- the use of corrosive flux during barrel assembly that invariably leads to the need to strip and relay the ribs, when you're making more guns than everyone else ya gotta cut some corners to keep production up

- the late (single spring) hammergun lock is an abomination with its single-legged and single-screwed bridle which can (by design) never serve its primary function of stabilizing the tumbler and sear pivots"

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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:05 am  Reply with quote
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Journalist hyperbole and creative fiction is always fun Wink , but:

Report on Duties on Metals and Manufactures of Metals
By United States Congress. Senate. Committee on Finance, 1912
Testimony regarding the Payne-Aldrich and Dingley Tariff Bills
http://books.google.com/books?id=QDkvAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA879&dq
STATEMENT OF MR. THOMAS HUNTER, OF FULTON, N. Y., REPRESENTING THE HUNTER ARMS CO. AND OTHERS
Mr. Hunter. There were 44,000 foreign-made guns shipped into this country in 1907. We have not the statistics later than that.
Senator Simmons. Were any shipped out from this country?
Mr. Hunter. I presume so. We are working hard to work up a South American trade.
Senator Simmons. Anywhere else?
Mr. Hunter. No, sir. We never have been able to ship them to England or Scotland or Belgium.

If Dave could provide the SN of the high grade Smiths sold to businessmen in Europe after Hunter Arms acquired L.C. Smith Maker in 1890, I'll ask Dr Jim to look up the shipping record. There are unfortunately very limited records for the Syracuse and transition (1888 - 1889) guns.

1887 - 1889 Bogardus used a Smith, grade unknown, but very few of the "Top Guns" used U.S. maker's guns until about 1895
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D8QkBDo-KIQYk2G8lkE-kHLUybB5NJzBahX_eFKEyuY/edit

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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:29 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 1480
Location: Mpls, MN.

Dave,
I think this is the link you were looking for.

https://vicknairgunsmithing.blogspot.com/2016/01/an-unbiased-look-at-design-of-american.html

We all have opinions, but, a few have opinions backed up with a lifetime of outstanding gun making and repair.

Merry Christmas, to all, and a Happy New Year!

Best,
Ted

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Researcher
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 2:57 pm  Reply with quote



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I don't know how Hunter Arms faired with foreign sales, but A.H. Fox Gun Co. sold a lot of guns to L.H. Hagen in Christiana (Oslo), Norway. Enough that they even had special engraving. With our territories acquired as a result of the Spanish American War, A.H. Gun Co. shipped a lot of guns to Martin Kohn in Havana and Squires Bingham in the P.I. I've also seen several orders to Lyon & Lyon in India.

When I lived in the D.C. area a friend had an Ansley H. Fox DE-Grade with French proof marks?!?

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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 5:29 pm  Reply with quote
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Interesting Dave and thanks.

In 1920, the Hunter Arms Co. listed the following international agents:
H.E. Heacock & Co., Manila, Philippines
C. Alken, Inc., Manila, Philippines
Spencer & Waters, Santiago, Chile
Martin Kohn, Havana, Cuba

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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:27 am  Reply with quote
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>16 years since the last Syracuse Quality 7, but an interesting price comparison in the 1906 William Read & Sons Catalogue

“Highest Quality” Westley Richards with single trigger - $595
W.W. Greener G70 “Imperial” - $500
W&C Scott “Premier” - $375
W&C Scott “Imperial Premier” - price on application
Purdey - 89 pounds 5 shillings sterling - about $446
Joseph Lang & Son “Highest Quality” sidelock ejector - 65 guineas
Parker Bros. AAHE - net price of $318.75
Lefever Optimus - $280
Remington Special - $750 = about $22,500 today

Hunter Arms list prices
L.C. Smith Monogram AE - $365 L.C. Smith A-2 - $390 L.C. Smith A-3 - $740

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nj gsp
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:45 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 437
Location: WI

I learned the other day that the Hunter single trigger was used by Westly Richards in many of their guns, including some double rifles. Apparently it is a simple, strong, and very reliable trigger design.

Saw this in a video somewhere, I'll see if I can find it.
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