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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:39 am  Reply with quote
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Vic Venters had a "Guncraft" article regarding the Hunter One-Trigger in the March/April 2010 Shooting Sportsman, which was (by permission) reproduced last year in the Journal of the LCSCA

July 21, 1901 Sporting Life
1901 GAH at Targets report
Mr. A.E. Lard was introducing the Westley Richards single trigger guns. It had detachable locks and was a fine piece of gun mechanism.

September 17, 1904 American Field

[url=https://drewhause.smugmug.com/LC-Smith/HOT/i-nKCC6zz/A] [/url]

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Dave in Maine
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:39 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Sep 2010
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My friend the gunsmith was restocking an LC Smith this past autumn. He's an English expat, works on all sorts of doubles. He's stocked Purdeys and other English bests, got a Boss single trigger working again. He knows his stuff. He's unabashedly biased in favor of English guns but gives respect where it's due. Likes the Fox action over the Parker for the former's relative simplicity. Doesn't think much of the tendency of Parker receivers to wedge through the head of Parker stocks. Has a lot of respect for the A&D boxlock which is ubiquitous across makers today. Unlike many double smiths, when it came to restocking a Smith he did not turn it down out of hand.

He showed me the inletting on the Smith. We looked at it and talked about it at length. Then we compared it to the selection of retired stocks from guns he'd restocked over the years, which he keeps for reference. There was no doubt the English guns had one heck of a lot more wood in the critical areas where recoil shock is concentrated. There also was no doubt the English guns distributed the shock more efficiently.

This is not to minimize the quality of workmanship in the LC Smith. It's high quality work. But sitting here talking about the design and execution of their stocks, on the one hand, and holding different makers' stocks in your hands and looking with your eyes (and your hands), on the other, there is little doubt the LC's design was wanting, even if the execution was superb.

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UncleDanFan
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 2:34 pm  Reply with quote
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All of the above said, that is a beautiful gun.

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 2:43 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Gentlemen,

Nice thread for sure, thanks for participating!.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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nj gsp
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 4:44 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 437
Location: WI

Here it is - a discussion and review of disassembly of the L.C. Smith by the late Nicholas J Makinson, with his opinion of the Hunter single trigger at 2:40:

https://youtu.be/7vtfXz-6g78?t=160

Mr. Makison obviously does not share Vicknair's distain for the L.C. Smith.
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:18 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

nj gsp,

Nick was one of the foremost gun makers in the world and knew more about L.C. Smith guns than most any of the modern gun makers. I reference his videos and writing most all the time when talking about L.C. Smith guns on the different forums. As you can see in Nicks fantastic video it takes a true master gun maker with the proper knowledge to work on an L.C. Smith gun, many gun smiths are not qualified to work on, or repair L.C. Smith engineering.

Researcher, to say I disagree with you or who ever you quoted opinion on L.C. Smith Engineering would be an understatement, you did say however you are not a mechanical person in any way. Your opinion on engineering/gun design and mine definitely differ. I agree with Nick Makinson on every aspect of L.C. Smith gun design and engineering.

nj gsp thanks for posting one of Nicks great videos on the L.C. Smith gun. I keep his videos on the L.C. Smith guns in my gun library.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

1901 L.C. SMITH #5 gun, one incredible piece of engineering. Click on the photo to enlarge Kraus's incredible engraving. Gun still operates like the day it was made, and has had many thousands of rounds run thru it, shooting live Pigeons, Clays, and wild game birds.


Last edited by Pine Creek/Dave on Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Chicago
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:28 pm  Reply with quote
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I am stunned that you could spend more money on an L.C. Smith than a Purdey or other London Best. There certainly is no comparison in quality or handling characteristics. The Brits have always made the finest doubles, although some of the high end American Classics were very fine guns and come up nicely. With that said it is probably not fair to compare a hand made gun with an assembly line gun.

Good Hunting,
Mike
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Researcher
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:30 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
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It wasn't my opinion; it was that of a well-respected double gun smith. While my collection has moved into triple digits, I don't own any of Alexander T. Brown's design. Have owned a couple in the past.

Mostly A.H. Fox Gun Co., but also Ithaca NIDs, Baltimore Arms, Winchester Model 21s, Parker, Baker, Tobin, American Arms Co. Whitmore, Lefever Arms Co., Remington Hammerless Doubles, Parry, Husqvarna 310s and RBLs.

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Old colonel2
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:55 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 07 Jun 2020
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While I believe the LC guns and Syracuse n guns were good guns, they unfortunately do not achieve the same quality of the London Best.

Purdey, Boss, and Holland at the same time made better guns.
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Old colonel2
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:56 pm  Reply with quote



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While I believe the LC guns and Syracuse n guns were good guns, they unfortunately do not achieve the same quality of the London Best.

Purdey, Boss, and Holland at the same time made better guns.
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nj gsp
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:14 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Aug 2007
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I agree with several of the points Vicknair makes in his blog regarding poor engineering, and there are certainly examples of that which he provides quite clearly.

What we see here are two highly skilled gunmakers with very different opinions, and it doesn't mean either one is wrong.

There is a reason guns today are no longer made the way they were made 100 years ago, and I'm not referring to the handwork and high quality that went into some brands, some firearms, and not others.

People today look down on laser cut engraving, but this is just the most modern and efficient way to create an intricate and detailed engraving with precision and speed.

I don't know if all the engraving that was done on these old doubles was all done entirely by hand, but I can tell you that every A grade AH Fox looks exactly like the others, and looks exactly like the one I have.

I would be very interested to learn how the engraving was done on those guns all those years ago with such precise duplication of the standard pattern.

The engraving on every Specialty Grade Elsie looks exactly like the one I recently bought, right down to that silly looking duck.

Elon Musk said that the biggest problem every smart engineer makes is working to develop and optimize something that shouldn't exist at all. That's why there are some features of every mechanical design that should have been deleted, and why most things are needlessly complicated.
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:16 pm  Reply with quote



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Chicago,

Actually it is fair to compare the Brit and German made Best guns to the L.C. Smith, LeFever, Fox and Ithaca double guns., they are all great guns. In reality the German Best double guns had Krupp barrels on them, making them some of the finest guns ever made. The L.C. Smith, LeFever and other American made guns also had these incredible barrels on them, the very finest ones anyway. In reality every Brit gun comes with tune up instruction, for after each hunting season, even my Boss gun had to be tightened 3 times in our families ownership. The USA built guns came with no such instructions, they were built for heavier American field use. LeFever and L.C. Smith guns were engineered every bit as fine as any Brit double gun, in most cases better, especially with Krupp Barrels, which the Brit guns did not have. Although Sir Joseph made great barrels, Krupp made the finest barrels in the world metallurgically, especially in the era. Every sportsman likes different guns, made in different countries. Italy, Spain and so forth, each country makes some fine Best guns. My buddy Ken Graft owned a pre 1910 16 gauge Purdey built on the original Hodges frame, one of the finest guns ever made, with sir Joseph Barrels. I own a J.P. Sauer & Sohn 1800 16 gauge Grouse Gun built on the Sauer 20 gauge frame. We also own great #5 L.C. Smith guns, all are Best guns, and it is hard to choose which gun to Grouse hunt with, at any given time. Best guns come from many different countries, London guns have a big reputation mostly due to some fine engineering and the different Wars shunning Best German, Italian and Spanish made guns. As Nick Makinson says, if the L.C. Smith gun had been made in London the Brits would still be talking about it today, as the best gun ever engineered.

all the best,

Pine creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

My buddy Galen's 16 gauge Westley Richards Drop Lock, one of the finest double guns ever engineered.

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bruski
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:30 am  Reply with quote



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Ummm...???

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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:23 am  Reply with quote
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Entertaining exchange regarding "machine made guns" in Jan. 30 1897 Sporting Life
Letter from Carver re: J. “147” L. Winston, “The Wizard of the West”, St. Louis representing Austin Powder Co.
Dr. W. F. Carver wrote a funny letter in a Chicago journal last week, in which he states that Winston could not kill good birds because he had a cheap American machine made gun, and if “147” had used the same kind of imported gun that he did the matches would have been closer. Will Dr. W. F. Carver kindly explain why Charles Grimm, using the same kind of machine made gun (L.C. Smith) as Winston did, managed to kill 98 out of 100 live birds and take the “Cast Iron Medal” away from him? In this match Grimm used the American machine made L.C. Smith gun, while Carver used an imported gun that he advertises free when he gets a chance.
Now if Carver’s gun is so much better than Grimm’s why did he not kill more birds? or was it because the cashless ([sic] Carver used a Cashmore) gun was only good on hard, fast zig-zig screamers, and not adapted for soft easy duffer birds? The “Evil Spirit” had better think again.

Grimm used a 12-bore L.C. Smith gun, 7 3/4 pounds, 3 3/4 drams Schultze, 1 1/4 ounce No. 7 shot, in U.M.C. Trap shell.


"Best" is as best does, and the American team soundly defeated the best of Great Britain and Scotland, and their "Best" guns, in the 1901 Anglo-American match; mostly with Parkers but also 2 Smiths and (oh the shame!) 2 Winchester Repeating Shotguns
https://docs.google.com/document/d/185YOyQl7GIB9OYLs9Hr3tnMLHqs4rjEdR4j_E9l4HLw/edit

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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:10 pm  Reply with quote



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bruski wrote:
Ummm...???



You said a mouthful....

Best,
Ted

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