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canvasback
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:48 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 684
Location: Ontario

Always entertaining when PCD shares some of his absolutes. I’ve never met anyone on line or in real life so sure of the correctness of his opinions.

I’ve had the good fortune to have met Mr Makinson and had him do work for me as well as talk a number of times with Mr Vicknair. I’ve also read as much of Vicknair’s blogs and other on line postings as I could find. Given Vicknair’s no nonsense rather blunt expression of his opinions, combined with the obvious stunning brilliance of his work, I have to go with Vicknair’s assessment of the Smith design. He’s not trying to make friends or retain clients.

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1921 Pieper 29" 6 lbs 10 oz
2003 Citori White Lightning 26" 6 lbs 10 oz
1932 Husqvarna 310AS 29.5" 6 lbs 7 oz
1925 Ferlach 29" 6 lbs 7 oz
1923 Greifelt 29" 6 lbs 1 oz
1928 Simson 29.5" 6 lbs
1893 Lindner Daly FW 28” 5 lb 11oz
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Jta5er
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:18 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 22 May 2020
Posts: 266
Location: Ky

My experience with LC Smith was the same as my 2nd exwife, looked great, felt great but cost way to much money to keep her going. Would have been better off without either one!
Have a Merry Christmas Fella’s

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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:18 pm  Reply with quote
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Location: Minnesota and Florida

As a practicing career engineer with an M.S. degree in mechanical engineering, whose career has been filled with theoretical, mathematical and experimental stress and vibration analysis, material science, machine design, testing and test methods, I get a kick out of how folks who obviously are neither engineers nor knowledgeable about engineering bandy the "engineering" word about. One of the most comical uses of the word is in the form "over-engineered". Poor design (design, while related to engineering is different from it) and poor engineering do exist, and thereby produce under-design and under-engineering respectively, but never over-engineering.

The use of the "over-engineered" term always indicates the lack of understanding of the physical world on the part the user, and a fear of what he/she doesn't understand and cannot articulate. A person's use of the term is a lashing out against the world or a group (engineers) because of a percieved threat or injustice, be that an issue of price, complexity, durability, aesthetics, etc, etc. In the lack of understanding, people use stereotyping to single out the ones they blame. They eventually turn to bigotry to justify their stereotypes.

Engineers and engineering are not the only skills and practices that are stereotyped by the ignorant and thereby derided. (Ignorance by the way is, in itself, no sin -- we're all ignorant of a lot of things -- it is impossible to know everything.) How about doctors, lawyers, firemen, farmers, teachers, carpenters, mechanics -- any skill or profession, name your favorite peeve. But the "over" term seems reserved for engineers, somehow. Why don't we have over-doctoring, over-lawyering, over-fire prevention and control, over-farming, over-teaching, over-carpentering, over-mechanic-ing, etc?

Anyway, I hope this produces some amusement and introspection. I have certainly been amused at the descriptions and the apparent bases of justifications of the designs of the shotguns mentioned in this thread. When I'm interested in facts, I'll side with those who are actually in position to witness, study and understand things, rather than those who have romantic commitments to those things. That having been said, I cannot avoid, and do not seek to avoid, romantic commitments to certain guns, flawed though they might be in the eyes of others. That romanticism is part of my enjoyment of life. Romantic commitments to any "art", even the design of machines, guns being just one example, are an essential part of life, but are matters of taste rather than matters of fact. And though we know that while facts are facts, we also know it is not justifiable to debate or try to restrict a person's tastes. Every person has a basic human right to his tastes, as long as those tastes cause no harm to others.

Cheers!
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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:58 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 1480
Location: Mpls, MN.

Jta5er wrote:
My experience with LC Smith was the same as my 2nd exwife, looked great, felt great but cost way to much money to keep her going. Would have been better off without either one!
Have a Merry Christmas Fella’s


The most relevant and astute comparison on the topic of the Smith gun seen to date.
Perfect.

Best,
Ted

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nj gsp
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:47 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 437
Location: WI

I would consider "over engineered" to mean unnecessarily and needlessly complicated, and "poor engineering" being a failure to understand why a design might be suboptimal, what would work better, or moving ahead with something without understanding why it's a bad design to begin with.

And again on the subject of engraving, I'd bet any amount of money if there was such a thing as CNC 3D machining and laser engraving 100 years ago, all of the American gun manufacturers would have been using it.

These were not nonprofit companies, and they were not artists in the purest sense of the word, they were businesses - owners, managers, and employees all working to profit and take home a paycheck.
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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:15 am  Reply with quote
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nj gsp -- I think you're over-thinking it . . . which is really under-thinking, isn't it . . . I think . . .
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fin2feather
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:19 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 2171
Location: Kansas High Plains

MaximumSmoke wrote:
Why don't we have over-doctoring, over-lawyering, over-fire prevention and control, over-farming, over-teaching, over-carpentering, over-mechanic-ing, etc?


I can only speak from my background (sales and marketing) but there certainly is such a thing as over-selling (ie, knowing when to shut up), and opinions - just like products and services - can certainly be over-sold Very Happy !

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:37 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

canvasback,

Thank you sir very much, engineering is all about absolutes, if you make a mistake when engineering either a good double gun or the NASA Space Shuttle, people can die.
If you are not absolutely certain of your engineering skills get out of the business.
Trained as a metals joiner ( Welding Engineer ) in my profession there was a zero tolerance for mistakes.

Remember however these are my professional opinions, developed thru education and work experience. Each person has his own education & experience to justify his opinions.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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Savage16
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:03 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 1694
Location: Minnesota

"True That" as the younguns say in regards to Canvasbacks comment about PCD's resolve in being a absolute fan of Elsies. Daves resolve is unwavering. I have 3, 12,16,and a 20ga. All basic field grade FW's so I guess I'm a fan too. Not that I dont have other makes in the safe. I however relish all of the Elsie bashing here and elsewhere as it keeps the cost down when I decide I need I need another Smile . That is except for the 20's;those seem to be taking off.

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:35 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Savage16,

In reality the L. C. Smith guns have been priced decently thru the years, of course the pre 13 and Graded guns will always cost you more money. If you want a great #5 gun be prepared to fork out some serious cash. If you want a 20 gauge or 16 gauge #5 be prepared to dig deep into your savings, if you can even find one to purchase.

It would be real hard for me to choose between a #5 L.C. Smith 16 gauge and a 16 gauge Westley Richards Drop Lock, both guns are just incredible engineering.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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Old colonel2
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:21 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 07 Jun 2020
Posts: 224

I had a 20ga #5 LC Smith, pretty gun, Hunter Trigger had challenges, and the barrels were not very thick.

Like a boat the day I brought it and sold it were both great days the latter being better.
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nj gsp
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:47 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 437
Location: WI

MaximumSmoke wrote:
nj gsp -- I think you're over-thinking it . . . which is really under-thinking, isn't it . . . I think . . .


I wouldn't be surprised if the term "over engineered" was first used in reference to British cars which have a reputation for being unreliable and needlessly complicated.

My dad always said if you're going to buy a Jaguar, you'd better be in the financial position to afford two so you can drive one while the other is in the shop.

It appears the consensus is that this can't be said for British double guns, which although I'm sure there are exceptions, excel in both design and craftmanship. How odd.
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:46 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

old Colonel2,

Just so I understand, you owned a L.C. Smith #5 20 gauge gun. I think you might be mistaken, being that there were only 21 #5 20 gauge guns ever made, and most are accounted for as to ownership, and only 35 or 36 #5 16 gauged guns ever made also. If you owned a L.C. Smith #5 20 gauge gun, you owned a big time L.C. Smith collectors gun, worth a great deal of money. Please post some pictures of your L.C. Smith #5 20 gauge gun, I would love to see it. Ken Graft and I own some serious #5 Guns, but not a #5, 20 gauge between us. You may have owned a #3 L.C. Smith 20 gauge gun, there were over 100 of them made.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

#3 L.C. Smith 20 gauge gun.


Our L.C. Smith #5 made to order for A. Kraus, engraved by him with the likeness of his own English Setter Gun Dogs. Click on the picture to enlarge.

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Cold Iron
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:14 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Mar 2016
Posts: 746
Location: Mn.

Over Engineered.. well i am a retired Navy Nuc Pit Snipe. Finished a couple of degrees while I was active duty. MS not the MA BS stuff LOL.

Tony I know of what you speak. And do not disagree. We have on one thing over the years but that comes from your lack of personal experience Very Happy

It isn't nuke power is more like rocket science hell anyone can do that. Finished a couple of my degrees while active duty and on Dec 7 finally went to met with the County VSO and already received a phone call from the VA medical to welcome me. Only been 26 years since I retried from the military and 46 years since I went to boot camp. I aint no sick bay commando.

But am a retired Machinest Mate Chief Petty Officer. And have some life experience in mechanical operations. Vickner put it best but you would have to subscribe to Deming's quality of control to understand.

Which if you understand it in the entirety is tied to Project Management.

Before I moved to Mn. I worked for a VAR in NC and Dr. John Adams was part founder of the company. TQM and PM are tied together. Dilbert cartoons made millions on the disconnect for good reason. I did pretty well on it as well. Working for a VAR until I took this cushy sit down gig more than 20 years ago after I retired from the Navy.

This thread has been good for my soul. I grew up (sic) in the Twin Tiers. We didn't have a Setter on every pouch step LOL only flatlanders brought them up. Most of us grew up with mutts. And hunted with what we had.

Although I did raise and hunt a Ryman out of DeCovery back in the mid 80's when I was back home on Recruiting duty. As a pit snipe with 5 year sea 2 shore rotation not much to do on land. And recruiting duty was 3 years instead of 2.

Cold Iron is the Naval Engineering term for the Engineering plant is shut down and the ship is receiving hotel from the pier. And you are not gong anywhere.

Long game went back to flushers like most of us grew up with back there.

Yeah the pointy dogs are beautiful. But in the end give me a flusher any and all day of the week. And most of us did back in the day. Rag mags be damned, just saying. They are written by someone sitting in an office. In some city.

Chief Petty Officer Machinest Mate (USN Ret).
Mike

Tony we need to shoot together again soon. Your conversation while sitting on a stool at the club was very mentally stimulating and enjoyable. Not to be confused with your flirting with the large breasted woman working behind the bar LOL.
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:17 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Mike (Cold Iron),

No matter which breed of dog you had, I am glad you liked to hunt with a good dog. Glad you owned one of Kens Decovery Ryman Setters also. Looks like a Ryman Setter finally made it on to your front porch also.
We also had our Weimar, Small Munsterlander and GSP dogs down thru the years, to go along with our Ryman Setters. Even had a Black Lab on my Grandfathers farm for a while. No doubt about it because my Great grandfather worked for the railroad and my Grandfather was a lawyer, our family was higher middle income in Potter County for sure. Because my Great grandfather & Grandfather were good friends with George Ryman and kept some of his female dogs at their home on the West Main Street in Galeton, Pa our family was gifted some incredible Ryman Setter dogs, down thru the year. Can't ever remember having a dog you would consider a mutt, some of the people in town in those days did not have any dogs at all. Many of the people outside the main town owned more than one dog however.
At that time West Main Street in Galeton was considered the outskirts of town and most of the neighbors had gun dogs of different types. I only smile when the term Flat Lander is used today, very few of us around any more who were actually born in Galeton, Pa.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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