16ga.com ~ View topic

Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 787 Location: Indiana

I happen to have about a pound of Hodgdon Clays on hand so I checked their website and found a load using 13 grains of Clays, a Winchester 209 primer, Remington hulls and 1 ounce of shot. Has anybody tried or used this load? I plan to use it for skeet; I already have the Clays but have only Cheddite or Federal primers, not Winchester 209's. I'm searching for a useful recipe.. I'm wondering how well the load would work with Cheddite primers. I know it is usually used for the 12 gauge.

Your thoughts?

Joined: 07 Sep 2011 Posts: 567 Location: wheeling, wv

Win 209 and cheddite 209's are pretty similar. I would sub the cheddites for the win without concern-- but that is my opinion. What velocity and pressure are listed for that load.

Member Joined: 30 Nov 2011 Posts: 1698 Location: Minnesota

This?
https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center?rdc=true&type=55

Guest

I personally would not load Clays in a 16 gauge hull, and I damned sure wouldn't swap primers if I did. jmho

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1844 Location: Central ND

I know what you are saying double vision, not very impressed with Clays and a 1 oz. load at the velocities that Hodgdon shows.

However put Clays with a 3/4 oz. or 7/8 oz. payload and I bet that would make a very nice clay target load.

I did the same with 16.0 grains 700-X and a 7/8 oz. payload (tested by Precision) and ended up with 1,260 FPS @ 8,100 PSI. Payload weight means a lot. And it cycles my 16 ga. 1100 like a champ.

Not sure swapping primers in the 1 oz. Hodgdon load is a good idea. Sometimes Cheddites can act on the mild side of a Winchester primer and sometimes they act hotter. Considering that Hodgdon only went as far as they did, might mean the load gets a bit touchy.

I am usually not that concerned with the Cheddite/Winchester primer swap. This time, I think I would have the load checked before I reloaded and used a lot of them.

Joined: 11 Jul 2021 Posts: 11

I saw the same info on the Hodgdon site. I have plenty of Clays that I use for my 12 ga trap loads. I thought this may make a nice load for my 16ga.

I have loaded both Rem and Fed hulls with the recipe given on the site. I only used win 209 primers. I don't like swapping primers.

The Rem loads worked fine for skeet, but I would not use for Trap, Sport Clays, or Field use. Not enough velocity for my liking.

I got some BP wads and tried in Fed hulls. They seemed to be weaker and did not perform as well as the Rem Hulls for some reason.

Since I have the BP wads I am going to load up some WIN hulls to see how they perform.

I agree that making a 7/8 or 3/4oz shot could make a better load.

Joined: 01 Jul 2021 Posts: 81

MSM- What was the 700x load?

Not trying to derail your thread

Some good test data I found related to primer substitutions: http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

Somewhere I had found a test of the the variability in "brisance" of different brands of primers, still looking. Either way, what I remember was that the Cheddittes were the most consistent of those tested, in that year, for those lot numbers, in that phase of the moon, etc. Point is, maybe the difference in W209s vs CH209s in the same load may be related to the W209 variability, or both.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1844 Location: Central ND

Federal 16 ga. w/paper basewad
Winchester 209
16.0 Grains 700-X
DR16 wad
7/8 oz. lead shot
Crimp depth .060" - .065"

1271 FPS 8163 PSI

Precision Reloading did the testing 10 months ago.

Found it:

https://www.shotgunworld.com/media/new_picture-jpg.639/

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1844 Location: Central ND

Please do not look at the Tom Armbrust's test and think that every load changes as much with a primer change. They don't and a quick perusal of loading data proves that.

The article that the chart came from was SHOTSHELL PRIMER SUBSTITUTIONS EFFECTING PATTERNS. To change patterns you couldn't use a load that was not sensitive to primer changes.

As far as variability. To get consistent pressure and velocity the whole load has to work together. Don't read too much into this primer swapping stuff that has reared it's head because of primer availability. 95% of what is posted is BS.

Here is a load with a Winchester primer, tested by Tom Armbrust.

I am going to guess that changing to a Cheddite primer isn't going to make this load any more consistent.

Cheddite 2 3/4" hull with plastic basewad
Winchester 209 primer Lot BCL237
18.0 Grains Alliant American Select
DR16 wad
3/4 oz. lead shot
Crimp Depth .060" - .065"

1,339 FPS
SD - 2 FPS
EV - 7 FPS

9,480 PSI
EV - 300 PSI

I don't know who wrote the article on primer brisance, but I wouldn't put a whole lot of faith that the article is of any great relevance.

Joined: 12 Sep 2010 Posts: 1973 Location: Maine

I think the folks on this thread have wound up talking past each other, addressing different things.

The 3 loads on the Hodgdon site for the 16 and Clays were aimed at producing loads with the same velocity. They all come in at about 1075 fps. In developing those loads pre-publication, Hodgdon held the velocity steady and fiddled with the other variables (Pressure, powder amount, primer) to come up with loads that yielded that same velocity. I have no doubt that in the course of their load development experiments they had other combinations that went over SAAMI-max pressure, or yielded undesirable velocities, or used too much powder or too little powder. They just didn't publish those recipes.

Stepping back, in absolute terms the Hodgdon load was pretty hot, pressure-wise, coming in at 10,500 psi. That's too close to SAAMI-max pressure for my liking (a), and too hot for my old guns, period, (b). When that close to the SAAMI max pressure, fiddling with primer choice strikes me as a bad idea. You might get away with it. Or you might damage or wreck your gun or, worse, cause personal injury.

Stepping further back, reloading shotgun shells is an exercise in developing a result where there are many variables. Off the top, those variables are hull type, hull length, primer type, powder type, powder amount, wad type, shot amount, buffer use or not, velocity, pressure, overshot card or not, crimp type. If you choose fiber wads as your "Wad type", then you will add to the mix composition of the wad column, wad pressure and maybe something else. If it's a "light" load, Crimp type and shot amount will also raise the question of "Cheerio or pinto bean?" to make a good crimp. A good crimp is vital with smokeless powder so you get enough pressure so, in turn, you get all the energy out of your powder, consistent velocity and patterning, clean burning and no bloopers. With all these variables, one gets a consistent result only by sticking to the same recipe. Modify one variable and you get a different result. That's true with primers, of course, but it's also true with any of the other variables.

Stick to the published recipes. If the combination you're proposing isn't published, there's probably a reason. If you're set on using your special recipe, send it out for testing first. Price of testing is much less than gun repairs or surgery.