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MSM2019
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:09 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

I have a Browning Citori Grade 1. I love the gun, it feels right, but it shoots high.

I have had an adjustable comb put on the gun by Tronspace. No complaints, got the cast I needed but he wasn't able to give me enough drop adjustment. The gun shoots probably 90/10 @ 30 yards which is just too high. I don't believe there is enough wood left to drop the POI any real amount. I really want 60/40, like all my other guns that have been fitted.

What's left????? Maybe bending?

I really don't know what to do, but the gun is worthless the way it is.

BTW this is typical for me, most guns off the shelf shoot to the left and high. This gun is no different and both barrels do shoot to the same POI, either off hand or off a rest.

It has come down to either fix it or sell it. If it didn't feel so good in my hands this wouldn't be an issue.

Opinions and suggestions???

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skeettx
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:26 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 15 Apr 2007
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Location: Amarillo, Texas

Install a 1/2 vent rib on the barrels

Or try something like this to prove the concept

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1005972033?pid=666597

Use only the front sight

Go here and call the factory

https://www.truglo.com/magnum-gobble-dot-pro-series/

Adjustable for windage and elevation

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RGuill96971
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:53 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 519
Location: Texas

Have you had the gun fit by a professional??? I recently had the same issue; it did need some cast and adjustment to the length of pull. I also made some changes to my mount. I thought it was all bull when the process started, but in the end, it was corrected and now it shoots great.
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:54 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

I have thought of trying an Add - A - Rib. They make one 3/8" tall for Browning shotguns.

Just not sure I want a raised rib. However it would leave the stock as is and not add drop, which can lead to more felt recoil into your cheek.

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MSM2019
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:07 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

RGuill96971,

I have had 2 guns professionally fit, a Beretta 686 Onyx and my 16 ga. 1100. Another was adjustable, a Benelli SS, which I was able to get correct with the shims provided. The 4th, I re-inletted the stock on a 16 ga. 870 to shoot flat for turkey hunting.

This shotgun isn't worth a professional fitter making a new stock for. With the adjustable comb, that took care of the cast issue.


My other idea is to sell this Browning and buy the Rizzini Comp 16, which can be ordered with the adjustable stock.

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Brewster11
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:33 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 1301
Location: Western WA

Mark
Some elementary trigonometry will show you that increasing the LOP will create more drop. It’s something simple and inexpensive to try before you embark on a major alteration project.

B.
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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:37 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 2062
Location: canandaigua - western n.y. (formerly deerhunter)

kinda like my KEEN SITES add on ribs . Can be had in many heights and lengths - approx 200 bucks .... The glue used for the Keen sights is strong , but removable if you don't like or need to change your set-up .... never been a great fan of full gun fit . Thought I had it figured out last trip to MOO , and then we got a blizzard - took the recoil pad off the Davis - left probably 12'' LOP , which fit the heavy jackets , but fixed the fit issue !!

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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 11:41 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 1550
Location: Minnesota and Florida

MSM2019,

On corrections, there are potentially 2 issues:

1) corrections due to defects in the gun, and

2) corrections due to differences in your particular physique from the "nominal" choices made by manufacturers of mass-produced guns.

I see you say both barrel shoot to the same POI (Point Of Impact). Do they in fact shoot to the same POA -- Point Of Aim. POI does not mean POA -- different thing. Which did you mean? Before you do anything check POA. I suspect from other things you report, you do not have POA problems with this gun, which is good -- more on that below. It's POA first before changes.

To determine POA, aim the thing. i.e. Line up the beads and rib with your eye the way you like it and see where it shoots. If the gun does not shoot to POA, that is more troublesome to contemplate. i.e. Why fiddle with the stock to make up for defects in the gun. If the gun is corrected for POA defects, the "look" down the barrels will not be "standard" or "aligned-looking". If you love the gun enough otherwise, you're going to modify the stock anyway though, right? Just make sure you know exactly what you're compensating for, if it affects the "value" the gun has to you. e.g. In my case I personally do not care for guns that do not shoot to POA, or require any resulting "odd" sight picture, even though I know I'm supposed to keep my eyes off the gun shooting moving targets. Therefore I would tend to get rid of such a gun, especially if it was a mass-produced gun of which I could get another. It would be cheaper for me to try another one rather than deal with a gun that doesn't shoot to POA. Anyway, that's just me.

I suspect that since the barrels shoot to the same POI the barrels are not the problem, especially since you report all your guns tend to shoot "left and high". That sounds like a personal build/fit issue. That's good. You have an adjustable comb. Sounds like you've corrected for left-right alignment. Sounds like you just can't get your comb low enough. Time to rasp that sucker down -- it's the cheapest thing you can do. What do you mean "there's not enough wood left"? It's the top of the comb that needs to be let down -- that's where the excess wood is. You don't need much taken off. How much rib are you seeing? Beads stacked . . . or?? You can easily use the 1/16th inch gives 1 inch at 16 yards estimate to see approximately the amount to remove from the comb. Using a wood rasp, you can sneak up on this very effectively.

Cheers!

PS -- By the way, have you actually compared the drop measurements of this Citori to guns that shoot where you like? It's easy. I put my guns on the bench top, barrel down, placing any beads over edges or in shallow-drilled holes to get the gun to lay flat on the sighting plane. Prop it "belly up" with books or what have you. Then I measure up to the comb at the nose, the heel and also between nose and heel about where your cheekbone rests, by using card stock (old credit cards work well) trimmed to fit at the measurement positions. Then I measure the cards to see exactly what I've got. Crude and cheap, but very, very precise.
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:19 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

Maxsmoke,

The POI is the same as the POA, if you set the gun on the bench and align everything. What I haven't done is check the drop as you asked, to see if it matches up with my other 3 sporting/hunting guns.

I don't know if there is all that much wood left on the comb, as there is hardware in the comb. If I take wood of the top than I wood need to take some off the sides, which I think is the bigger problem. I don't want to get into the hardware while rasping/sanding.

I am hesitant to play with LOP. That would be a fairly big change (guessing 1/2" to 3/4" longer)to compensate for this much drop and the shotgun would not mount as instinctively as my other shotguns. That would be a bigger problem than this gun shooting a little high.

I am kinda wishing I had the stock bent now. It would have been correct or at least easier to make correct.


Last edited by MSM2019 on Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

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ROMAC
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:32 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 07 Mar 2010
Posts: 482
Location: South Eastern PA

A quick solution that is easily tested is to add a slip on pad.

I have a 15 to 15 1/8th inch LOP, with cast on being left handed. Nothing really works for me from the factory so I have had stocks lengthened and bent to at least neutral to give me a better alignment. I shoot short stocks high and the longer the stock the further back my cheek makes contact with the stock which lowers the POI.

Adding length can lower the POI quite a bit depending on the drop.

Here's a picture of my custom Fox in the workshop of my gun guy. I am having built to my specs and getting it custom engraved. (It is almost done) The stocker used the original stock and added length and then bondo for grip circumference and building up to my dimensions. After it was close we went to a patterning board and spent a good bit of time shooting and adjusting. To get the cast just right the stock was cut at the wrist and wedges were added and epoxied in to move it to the perfect cast on for me. Once everything is set, it it used as the pattern stock on a duplicator to rough shape your custom blank.



The project is almost done but I'm not showing any more progress pictures until it is.
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Hootch
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:28 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1460
Location: Eagle, Nebraska

I have had a couple of o/u's fitted and well worth it.
Marc Murphy of Murphy & Sons in Augusta Kansas did the fittings.
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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:28 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 01 Dec 2005
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Location: Minnesota and Florida

ROMAC -- Check PM's. Thanks.
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:57 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

The four guns that fit me have LOP's from 14" to 14 1/4". Anything longer than 14 1/4" is going to be a issue. Adding LOP to change POI is not a good trade off for me.

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ROMAC
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:12 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 07 Mar 2010
Posts: 482
Location: South Eastern PA

I hear you about length.

I'm 6' 3" with long arms though.

My project is being delivered with a custom horn butt plate, specifically so I can access how the LOP feels hunting. I wanted to leave the stock as long as possible before deciding if I want a leather pad or even a skeleton butt. If I spent a ton of dough having the skeleton butt put on then wanted to shorten it later I'd be spending big dollars twice.
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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:30 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 01 Dec 2005
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Location: Minnesota and Florida

MSM2019,

Can you cut the level at which your adjustable cheek piece is mounted on the stock to a lower level and gain a bit more downward adjustability. It would involve lowering the "original" level of the nose and heel of the original comb, and perhaps re-contouring the stock near the top edge of the "cut out" to match the "movable" part of the adjustable comb, but unless this operation starts to interfere with the throughbolt, you might be able to get away with it.

Alternatively, can you get a new buttstock that has not been altered and lower the comb on that to get your eye to the right level, and then deal with any offset by altering the angle and or offset of the comb at the cheek? You are right-handed, I assume, from your report that patterns are off to the left, as well as your statement in earlier posts that you use a little cast off.

Whatever is cheaper and/or aesthetically better is the way to go. Maybe bending in the vertical plane is, but I think it leads to the need for other changes, such as dealing with the now lowered heel, and the pitch. Bend that stock down about a half to 3/4 inch to get things right at the face, and pitch and drop at the heel go way out of whack. Seems extreme when all you need is a lowered comb.

Remember, changing the slope of the "sight line" is the real objective if you're trying to lower the POI. You can either lower your eye (lower comb), or raise the bead (tall rib). Which one assaults your senses or pocketbook the least? Your choice.

Failing all that, simply get used to "floating" the target. I find I do this naturally when I shoot someone's gun that has too little drop for me. Don't ask me how I adapt to all the variations of comb height and offset I shoot, but it seems I can and do, subconsciously. Brister mentions that in his book too, as I recall. I'm no miracle man, so I'm guessing most humans have the capability to adapt. While I seem to adapt naturally on clays, my performance with a poorly fit gun declines drastically in the upland shooting situations where I have to rely on an instinctive mount. Go figure. Am I more of an "aimer" on clays, or is it just that I have time to check my alignment to the barrel and compensate unconsciously before taking my eyes off the gun and calling for the bird, disregarding how odd it might feel to my hands and face while I concentrate on the target and move my body. I think it is the latter, and I can't do that in the field.

Best Wishes,
Tony
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