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Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

Yeah, the beretta's felt really good to my brother and I in the gunshop - better than the brownings, we thought -sleeker too. But, for some reasson we just dont shoot them well even after fitting. The citori/superposed are just great. Funny 16 GA guy, my bro and I both float the target with our brownings. We have to see target, bird etc or it just doesnt work. I hate low shooting guns and have the exact opposite view of making low guns shoot high etc. I would just as soon make a high shooter shoot lower any day. As long as I can see the bird when the trigger is pulled I'm fine. Hate to black out targets and pray, just doesnt seem right if you can't see it explode or drop from the sky without dismounting. Just seems fundamentally wrong to me. Also don't like low ribs on guns either. Doesnt have to be real high either. Also have a devil of a time with old sxs's with alot of drop at comb and heel. Prolly why I like the XS so well with its parallel comb. That said i can shoot most all the citoris well, from classic to XS. Really liked the 425 so I can understand your love of the 325. J. Browning just nailed with the Superposed design, blocky-ness and all. Have you ever shot a straight stocked citori? I'm curious about how those shoot. Seems like I would like them if they behave like other english stocks I've shot. They usually shoot high - no?

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I remember growing up and looking at Browning catalogs, dreaming of the day I might be able to afford a Browning O/U. And, much later in life, my first and second O/U purchases were actually Citoris. Good looking, rock solid and trouble free. But my shooting went to hell. Then I tried a 686 ... and my shooting improved. Wanted to be a Browning man, but it just wasn't to be. If you switched the "Beretta" and "Browning" around in 16gg's post, that would be my experience. I, too, am a "flat" shooter, and as they come from the factory, Beretta and Rizzini guns just come into the sweet spot much more naturally for me.

Which is not to say I dislike Brownings. To this day, if someone's looking for his first quality O/U and asks me the Browning vs. Beretta question, I tell him to come to come to the club with me. I'll throw some flats in the truck, and he can shoot my Berettas and we'll find some guys who will let him shoot their Brownings. I'm not qualified to tell someone which is the better fitting and handling gun for him, but I can let him shoot mine and find some good guys who'll pitch in on the Browning end.

Jig, When I refer to floating a target, I'm talking about holding well below the mark by at least 6" or more. Some folks like to float a bird a foot above the bead. I can't do that unless I now the target is sharply dropping. I still bring the barrels through the mark's line of flight, but my swing will bring the barrels sharply below the mark as I'm pulling the trigger. On flat targets and shallow risers, I put the bead right on the bottom of the target as I swing through it. The momentum of the gun will carry the barrels up through the mark as my swing completes itself. However, by that time, the trigger has been pulled. So I guess you could envision it as floating a target, but it is not. I probably shoot very similarly to you.

I see the whole target immediately above the rib when the shot breaks. However, during the lag time between pulling the trigger, and following through, the barrel is still moving and should be moving relatively faster than the mark. This means the barrel must be pointed slightly above the bird heightwise as the shot column leaves the muzzle. Otherwise, I'd hit low. It has to be, because the target is still climbing in a shallow rise. I do not consciously see this of course, because my eyes are locked on the target as the barrel flashes by it. However, my brain is aware of the action. We learn to wingshoot subconciously as well as consiously.

It sounds complicated, but its not. Its our natural hand/eye coordination working for us--a natural ability humans have developed better than most other creatures. We have the ability to simply reach out and put our hands on a moving object with exquisite coordination.

For the purposes of wingshooting, it is better to keep our eyes focused dead on the mark. However, our hands can be moving in relationship to the mark's line of flight. This we do not have to see and its best not to try. Looking back at the gun during the shot will cause you to miss too. Every time. However, if an object is stationary, we do not have to look at it again once we know where it is. We can pick it up without focusing on it, just as we do not have to look at our hands if we are trying to catch a moving object.

We often pull the trigger as the barrels are passing the mark. This momentary break in our visual contact with the mark can cause us to hesitate. This is where commitment to the shot comes in. This is where confidence in the results of our actions pays off. Faith in our ability if you will. We do not hesitate, and the target is crushed.

Another way to put it is learning to trust your swing. This is where confidence in one's ability makes us or breaks us. If we doubt ourselves during the shot, we hesitate pulling the trigger. This will alter our natural timing and we will miss. We might lift our heads slightly to refocus better on the mark, and again, we miss. We might stop our swing or try to consciously alter its path. Again, we miss. In short, we can't afford to think and do at the same time. We either do, or not do. Hesitation avails you only failure. Swing confidently through the mark and let your subconscious work. You will learn to pull the trigger at the right time. Just trust yourself. Then let your confidence build on your successfull shots. We learn nothing from a miss, so just forget it and try again, but with a bit more resolution. We learn everything from a crushed target if we just keep the faith in our swing, so trust it.

However, to come full circle, this shooting process works best for us if our gun fits us very well andshoots right where we look. Otherwise, we are also trying to learn to compensate for a gun that shoots off a bit. This will interfere with the learning process to no end and will cause problems of its own later down the road. Its too high a price to pay. Better to have the gun fitted to you as soon as you can, before you pick up and reinforce some bad shooting habits. Learn to shoot straight the right way right from the start.

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

16GA guy-that makes sense and I understand now. We do shoot the same.
Yeah, I can't imagine floating 6". The picture for me is as you described-exactly. My ideal picture is when the bead is as close to the bottom of the clay as is possible without touching it (at least thats what my subconcious tells me). Obviously, I'm not really focussing on the bead. Rather, its an image that mt subconcious sees as I follow the target and determine the exact moment in which to squeeze the trigger. Can't do that though with the little Sterlingworth I recently bought. Somehow I need to get that gun to do that. Because I refuse (at this point) to change my technique to the gun. It's neither smart, or constructive to do that unless of course you are a one gun man-and even then its less than desireable if you can help it.
As a citori guy, I'd be real interested to know if you have ever shot any guns with a straight grip, and how you did. And anyone else for that matter. My experience with a straight grip is very limited. But what I've read much about lately in gamegun books has stated that the straight grip has built in lead. I'm assuming that means they shoot high as they are what the brits use for incoming driven bird shoots. That sounds like a desireable configuration to me, unless they shoot so high that your analogy of the 6" hold under would come into play. I guess my limits for hold under would be 1-3 inches. Otherwise it would change my current technique and instinct too much.

built in lead? I doubt the grip has that much effect. What a straight grip does do is allow the trigger finger and grip hand some latitude as we add or subtract clothing including gloves.

Originally, these grips were found on guns with two triggers to allow for shifting the hand to the front trigger, then back. In theory, it works, but in reality, it does not wash. If we are shooting both barrels in rapid succession, we are gripping the wrist very firmly and only the finger is shifted. If we loosen up our grip on the gun, we will loose control of it and miss anyhow. That is why most folks can shoot guns with twin triggers and a shallow pistol grip just as easily as a straight wristed gun.

What really controls how high or low a gun will shoot is the drop to comb and how high our eye sits above the rib plane. Pitch of the butt can and does affect the impact point of the pattern slightly. So does how deep or shallow the forend is. Then there is gun dynamics--how it moves during the shot from recoil and in relation to our own body movement. However, the major one is comb height.

I shoot a straight wristed Citori Superlight just about identically as a Lightning model if all else is equal. The LOP and drop to comb on the two guns is identical. The forends have just about hte same depth, and the curved butt plate on these guns is pitch neutral as are most curved butt plates.

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

I just measured the drop at heel of the Sterlingworth whixh was 2 3/8" with an LOP of 14 1/8"
the XS Skeet was 1 1/2" with an LOP of 13 1/4" (I had it cut to fit)

Oddly enough the superposed I had that I shot so well was with an LOP of 14". It was off the shelf and never fitted like the XS. I must have adjusted myself to the gun - though there was never any concious adjustment made as I killed the first 12 cocks I aimed it at. I hate to adjust the LOP on the Sterly (the english always say we Americans shoot guns with too short an LOP) Plus, I can't imagine getting my cheek any closer to that sharp and narrow crown. And anyway, the Sterly feels so right as is. As you may or may not know, the sterly has a very slight curve at wrist, and can't be mistaken for a full on pistol grip.In fact its as straight as it could be while not being a straight grip.