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Hammer bill
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:46 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Posts: 815

I check my beam scale regular. But I do find it's not unusual for a reloading bar throw as much as 2 full gr off. Even if you checked 1 of 5 constantly. Most bars will stay within 3 to 5 tenths. I don't like it but grown to live with it. Trying to get it better everytime I wouldn't get anything loaded. On a home reloader things can go a different direction quickly. But realizing the problem may show up much later. Especially with hulls fired more than once. Just my thoughts.
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double vision
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:43 am  Reply with quote
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Hammer Bill, a 2 grain variation is a lot. Not doubting you, and good reason not to operate near max pressure.

I bought one of the pricy “Adjusta Bars” from Ballistic Products for my Sizemaster. So far I like it, but noticed the shot knob loosened up on me the other day. Caught it when I check-weighed and noticed I was a consistent 20 gr. over.
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jim18611865
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:08 am  Reply with quote
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Got a call from Tom last night.
Both loads I sent were over pressure.
One retest with proper crimp, and one long published 1 oz. load with the AA16 wad.

I didn't get the paperwork yet so I will wait to post the results.
I may send Alliant an email and see what they have to say after I get my paperwork.
I got this powder (16 lbs.) on 1/26/2020 through my club which came from CAC.
The first container is gone, and I recently opened the second.
Tom or I really don't know what to think. It wasn't crimp depth.

Jim
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:58 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

I would be surprised if Alliant addresses your concerns.

There was some concern about Steel powder awhile back, because everyone that had loads tested came back over SAAMI MAP. Alliant hasn't changed their data yet, but some folks had to.

I have a buffered Bismuth load that needs to be retested, as I had to buy more Steel powder recently.


As far as crimp depth for 12 and 16 gauge loads, every load I have ever had tested or tested myself has always been .060" to .065". This is not a criticism, but .030" is too shallow.


jim18611865, one question. I understand that the chamber pressure was high, but what about the velocity of the loads using Green Dot. Was that over 35 FPS higher than published/expected? The reason I ask is that the velocity of a load is more directly affected by the amount of powder gas generated than by chamber pressure. Generally more powder equals more powder gas equals more velocity. If the velocity is increased over 35 FPS, I think you found the culprit, which would be the powder. It would be even better if the velocity was 50-75 FPS or even higher, at least from a what is wrong POV.

Just some random thoughts and what I have seen, but Mr. Armbrust will be the final word. I am glad he is the guy you sent the loads to because he has probably seen more than even some of the ballisticians that work in the powder and ammo factories.


Last edited by MSM2019 on Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:01 am; edited 1 time in total

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double vision
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:59 am  Reply with quote
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Jim, I just had a similar experience with some Hodgdon data. A load they have at 1165 fps and 7400 psi ran a solid 1300 fps over my chronograph, and you could definitely feel a major boost in recoil vs the 1150-1200 fps loads I was also checking.

Damn glad I didn't just run with their data and shoot them in a 5 lb. 12 oz vintage SxS I recently picked up.
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:05 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
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I agree double vision. I almost forgot about that. Where Hodgdon came up with those numbers using Universal, I will never know. Those numbers weren't even close, not even 20+ years ago.

When I started looking through different data I wasn't the only one that had the numbers I sent you.

I was always in the 'why bother checking published data camp', I am beginning to question that philosophy.

I would kinda sorta not be surprised with slower burning powders and heavy payloads to wander a round a bit, but Green Dot and Universal? Especially Green Dot that powder has been around for a long time.......I think I also know why the 7/8 oz. load using Green Dot I played with the other day, ejected the hulls so much farther than the other loads I tried.

Here's the load:

Remington RGL hull
Winchester 209
17.5 grains Green Dot
CB0078-16 wad
7/8 oz. lead shot
.060" -.065" crimp depth

Velocity - 1303 FPS - ES 28 FPS

That was well over 50 FPS higher than any load I can find using 17 -18 grains of Green Dot in that hull with similar but not exact components.

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double vision
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:23 am  Reply with quote
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Mark, I’m starting to wonder if they test all of their loads. With the 1oz 572 data the stack heights are incredibly low.
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:16 am  Reply with quote



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I do believe they test everything. I am wondering if there are typos. I would think that the folks doing the testing aren't the same folks that compile and post the data.

Well.........1 oz. loads in straight wall hulls, using the SG16, SG16S and the Z2M16 have always been a little iffy when the lower velocity loads, using less powder are used. The wad column heights have always been a bit short. With 572 they will be shorter and probably need a nitro card in the bottom of the wad.

That's why I went with the Remington hull and WAA16 (CB0100-16) wad. Which did fit correctly with no BS.

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jim18611865
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:19 am  Reply with quote
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I'll post the results once I get the paperwork.
I don't want to go from what Tom told me on the phone.

I use a lot of Green Dot. I will have to start rethinking my reloads.
Granted I did use up 8 lbs. and nothing bad happened. Yet...

I would bet that 17.5 grains in a Rem hull would be close to max. or over pressure.


Jim
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:13 pm  Reply with quote



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jim18611865,

Yeah it very well could be over MAP. Not a big deal for me as I only bought a pound to try out some 7/8 oz. loads.

The Green Dot will sit.

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harkom
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:24 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 01 Mar 2017
Posts: 52

Jim,

would you care to provide the Lot/Batch No. of the Green Dot? May be useful information for others.
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jim18611865
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:25 am  Reply with quote
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I assume the lot # was the same for both containers, but I don't know for sure .
The other container is gone, but they came in one 16 lb. box.
968 X 061819

Jim
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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:02 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
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Location: canandaigua - western n.y. (formerly deerhunter)

sounds like you got Red Dot in a GD disguise !!

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Hammer bill
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:10 pm  Reply with quote



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I had same problem with universal powder. Tried published loads .no matter what I tried with universal the gun would almost jump out of my hands. Haven't used any since.
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jim18611865
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 1:40 pm  Reply with quote
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OK got the results.

Retest: all hand weighed and proper crimp depth.
16 gauge Federal Hull Federal 209A primer. 15/16 oz. #9 Claybuster CB0078-16. 17.5 grains Green Dot.
Velocity Avg. 1256 EV 21-----PSI Average 12980 EV 500

Published load
16 gauge Federal Hull Federal 209A primer. 1 oz. #9 WAA-16 wad. 19.0 grains Green Dot.
Velocity Avg. 1295 EV 9-----PSI Average 14400 EV 600

Jim
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