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can anyone share what they think the difference in a boxlock vs a sidelock? both in appearance and engineering? so far I know the side plates on a sidelock are removable, but have never taken one apart so don`t know what it looks like inside the action.

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2012 Posts: 1114

The sidelock's side plates contain all the firing mechanism parts except for the triggers and firing pins. The sears, hammers and springs are mounted on the side plates by pins which is where you get the references to 7 pin, 5 pin, etc. sidelock. many of the more modern designs also contain intercepting sears that help prevent accidental discharge.

The box lock contains all the firing mechanism within the receiver or "box" and thus the name boxlock. Most of the older boxlocks are of the Anson and Deeley pattern that utilizes V shaped flat springs for the hammers and top lever. Modern designs often use strut mounted coil spring as found on many over and under guns to power the hammers.

Another type of SXS action is the trigger plate action where all the firing mechanism with the exception of the firing pins is mounted on the trigger plate. The Dickinson is the latest and most available of the trigger plate actions

Kennedy756,

The best thing to due is punch up the Video that shows the difference in the engineering of the Side Lock and the Box Lock, can't remember who made the video, I will probably have it in my archives some place. I listed the Video at the bottom of my post alone with Master Gun Maker Nick Makinson L.C. Smith Video.
Both very good educational videos. You may want to copy both for your own use.

1st the Side Lock engineering is a more complex engineering than the simple Box Lock.
All the internal parts that operate the firing of the gun are mounted on the internal Side Locks of the double gun, and on the high grade guns, both the internal Side lock and all the parts are damascened and the parts are highly polished. I recommend the Double Gun Video presents The L.C. Smith Side Lock Shotgun with Master Gun Maker Nick Makinson for you're educational viewing. The Video is also on the Net someplace. Different gun companies Side Locks are engineered in different ways, in the L.C. Smith video Nick takes the gun apart step by step so you can see the different parts, including the incredible Brown Rotary Bolt engineering. He then fixes a worn part and reassembles the gun right on the video. Few Gun Smiths had his talent. This is just an over view to get you started with your double gun engineering education.

The other incredible Engineering is the Westley Richards Drop Lock, probably the very best double gun engineering ever invented.

CGS explains the engineering of Side Lock, Box Lock & Trigger plate in an educational video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G281KNk2Zt8

Nick Makinson's L.C. Smith Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vtfXz-6g78&t=160s

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 1310 Location: Western WA

The “lock” is the firing mechanism of a gun, from whence comes the expression “lock, stock and barrel”. It dates back seven hundred years or so. The sidelock is basically a continuation of the earliest lock designs, except the lockplates are flipped around so the hammers are inside the action. A sidelock is actually a relatively primitive design.

The boxlock is a comparatively modern design, wherein the firing mechanism is integral with the rest of the action inside the receiver. Its parts can be mostly made of stampings. Trigger plate and droplocks are also distinct from the sidelock but rarely made today due to manufacturing complexity.

Functionally the sidelock has advantages because of its mechanical simplicity, and accessibility to the workings, in the field if necessary. But its mechanical elegance comes at a cost, and some consider the sidelock to be problematic as it requires removal of significant amounts of wood from the stock. It remains popular as a high end item because of the generous area for engraving on the lockplates.

A nice 16ga sidelock abides downstairs here but mostly in a state of repose. The sturdy and humble boxlocks get all the field action. The prospect of parting the brush or breaking my fall with the sidelock after a misstep discourages its use, not so much with an off the rack boxlock.

V/R
B.

Joined: 17 Jan 2014 Posts: 1381 Location: Denver, Colorado

Well, boxlocks are clearly more affordable in that it takes less hand-fitting to complete them (& some have little or no hand-fitting at all). Some are extravagant and quite beautiful (i.e. the Westly Richards variants previously mentioned here) and some are very plain and utilitarian (cheap & Turkish comes to mind). I once read that the boxlock shotgun design is the single-most copied and produced version of shotgun ever made & I'd tend to believe that.

Sidelocks are the natural evolutionary process whereby the early hammergun designs became what is now a modern shotgun. The hammers were simply moved inside the lockplates. Some are beautiful and expensive, and some are less-so. Both can work well for the job at hand, but boxlock doubleguns are generally seen as being less-fragile and needing less maintenance over time.

Early on, intercepting safety sears were fitted to the better variants of both designs, but as time has worn-on, only the better sidelocks still have them (if you happen to drop a gun with interceptors, it won't likely go-off). Boxlocks, (with their wider sear-faces) were deemed unlikely to go off in such a situation.

Dropping your shotgun is never a good idea BTW....

Brewster11,

The external Hammer gun design was the primitive design work, the 1st actual working Side Lock engineering was invented by W&C Scott & Sons in 1878. It was decently complex engineering and costly to make. There were other Side Locks engineered in France & Germany earlier, that failed to work on a longevity basis. H&H Immediately purchased the W&C Scott rights to use it producing their double guns. The Box Lock engineering invented by Westley Richards in 1875 actually pre dates the the working initial Side Lock Engineering. Nothing modern about it at all, it was simple engineering invented by Westley Richards as a cost cutting process to actually sell guns, that could be made by a machine process, rather than by hand labor.

Trigger Plate engineering is used today by many differed gun companies, Huglu has a 200A gun engineered after the Beretta design work, I just purchased one this last year. Purdey introduced a new Trigger Plate gun recently also. The Westley Richards Drop Lock Engineering, probably the finest gun engineering ever invented, is made on a daily basis at Westley Richards today, it is costly and perfect. The guns must be special ordered, none are made to stock shelves. My good friend Galen owns a 16 gauge Westley Richards Drop Lock, it is incredible engineering.

It was not until L.C. Smith refined the Side Lock Engineerings that most middle income sportsman could afford to own the Side Lock engineering. It is simple 5 piece engineering that seldom if ever fails. Further when a Side Lock double gun is used correctly, and cleaned & stored properly, the stocks seldom fail. I have many in pristine condition, all are over 100 years old.

The Side Lock engineering has always been consider best Gun engineering, many of the parts must be hand made to work perfectly.

There is a great deal of difference between a simple Box Lock gun that can be machine produced and an expensive hand fit and finished Side Lock double gun. The only gun engineering better than the traditional side lock is the Westley Richards Drop Lock (Hand Detachable Lock), which is equally expensive to manufacture.

all the best,

Pne Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Joined: 03 Feb 2008 Posts: 830 Location: Adirondak Mtns

The exception to all the above is a Lefever , when ch has side plates but is actually a box lock. Side steps are basically cosmetic. However, an argument can be made for the best of both worlds. Function and style

My opinion anyway.

Joined: 03 Feb 2008 Posts: 830 Location: Adirondak Mtns

The exception to all the above is a Lefever , when ch has side plates but is actually a box lock. Side steps are basically cosmetic. However, an argument can be made for the best of both worlds. Function and style

My opinion anyway.

Joined: 12 Sep 2010 Posts: 1973 Location: Maine

The other main difference between the boxlock and the sidelock is in the work needed to inlet the head of the stock to match the action. That's both in the amount of work and, more importantly, the quality and precision needed.

For a boxlock, the head of the stock needs to be shaped to receive the butt-end of the action box with allowances for the top and bottom tangs, trigger blades, and the safety. The wood will have to be shaped to meet the action perfectly, but while that is precision work (and, depending on the maker, can be a bad design to begin with), it is something that can be largely done by and in factories with machines and a bit of hand finishing to final fit.

On the other hand, the inletting of a sidelock just begins with the sideplates. Since all the workings of the action are on the sideplates and only a little on the back side of the standing breech, the real work is in inletting to insides of the stock head to fit, and allow only proper movement of, the pieces of the lock which are mounted on the sideplates. This is all hand work and done to the highest level of precision. All the cuts seem to have compound curves to accommodate the lock parts. Little to none of it is done with power tools. All the shapes have to be precisely aligned in three dimensions, with a web in the middle making it impossible to see both sides at the same time.

I have on my desk a lamp made from the retired stock of a Purdey, a stock made surplus when a noted gunsmith restocked it. I can't get a good photo of it to show you. But, take my word for it, the workmanship is both astonishing and perfect.

The level of woodworking skill needed to pull that off, and the special tools (reverse-ground chisels just one of the many near-unique tools used) needed cost money. Lots of it. With a good sidelock, you get best work and you pay best money.

Sidelocks (not sideplates) vs. Boxlocks

1) All the stuff mentioned by Riflemeister are basic construction differences,but there are generally features that make the cost of a sidelock worth the cost to some folks, so . . .

2) Sidelocks (good ones) usually employ intercepting sears, a safety feature that prevents the tumbler (hammer to a lot of we USA folks) from falling unless the trigger is pulled. Without an intercepting sear, a gun can discharge if dropped or otherwise impacted. Intercepting sears have been put on boxlocks, too, but considering the market into which boxlocks are sold, and the fact that it probably is more costly to put an intercepting sear on a boxlock than on a sidelock, it was never done very often.

3) Sidelock geometry generally produces better trigger pulls.

4) Sidelocks have a lot more surface area on which to place embellishments such as engraving and inlays -- again, appropriate to, and characteristic of, an up-scale, more costly product.

None of that may make a hill of beans for some; to each his own, and what he chooses to afford. Sidelocks are more part intensive and much more costly to produce, usually requiring more hand fitting.

It should be noted, there are no good sidelocks made in the US, except by some of the later custom gunmakers (CSMC and ??). Few of the old US guns from the early to mid 20th century are, in fact sidelocks, and those that are, are not good ones.

Try this: https://www.boxallandedmiston.co.uk/shotgun-anatomy/the-difference-between-a-boxlock-and-a-sidekick

Max Smoke,

To say I disagree with the last paragraph of you're post would be a big understatement. You might want to take a look at Nick Makinson's L.C. Smith video I posted earlier. While it is true that most of the USA gun makers settled on producing Box Lock double guns to keep their cost down, and some were darn good guns, Parker, Fox and Ithaca are good American made Box Lock double guns. LeFever did make some Side Lock double guns very early in his carreer as a gun maker, also his Box lock guns have stood the test of time. The L.C. Smith gun design has few equals, and yes the later guns were made with a lot of machine work, the pre 13 guns were all hand fit and finished. Until you own a #5 16 gauge L.C. Smith you really have not owned a great America made Side Lock double gun. If you can find one now for sale under $15,000 you will be real lucky. Although the later made Crown Grade is very similarly made/engineered, the #5 gun was all hand fit and finished, making it the higher quality double gun. The Side Lock engineering Design of the L.C. Smith has no real engineering equal, from the simple 5 piece Side Lock engineering to the Brown Rotary Bolt, with some of the worlds finest engraving the guns are built to last for darn near ever.
Never needing a tune up, like the Brit or German Best guns. The American public purchased many millions of these guns to both hunt with and shoot live Pigons and later Trap and different kinds of Clays. Many of these guns although highly used are still in pristine condition and the American public, especially bird hunters purchase them even today form places like GI for serious money.

America not only had some great Side Lock double guns, they had the very best ever engineered and purchased by the American Sportsman.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Joined: 07 Jun 2020 Posts: 229

I have owned an LC Smith 5e and held many other similar grade or better LC’s.

I like LC Smith guns, but do not deceive myself into believing they represent a pinnacle in side lock engineering, when compared to other varieties of side lock.

Imitation is the greatest flattery, and moreover the adoption of someone else’s design and its perpetuation is a good measure of the soundness and quality of design. The south gate ejector, Purdey under bolt, Scott Spindle, and Holland side locks are all utilized by manufacturers around the world, no one I know of is copying the patents and design of the LC. There is not a collection of clones of LC design.

While LC Smith is the most numerous American side Lock, and has a great following of earnest collectors that does not prove the merit of the design. I note that well known and very qualified gunsmith Dewey Vicknair has written a damming evaluation of the LC Smiths design https://vicknairgunsmithing.blogspot.com/2016/01/an-unbiased-look-at-design-of-american.html I allow his words to speak for themselves.

To return to the base question of this thread a comparison of side locks and box locks, without drifting into drop locks, trigger plate, or other actions. The difference is real in terms of simplicity, Box locks win, aesthetics, side locks win, intercepting safeties, side locks win though the feature can be found on a few box locks, affordability, box locks win, durability, if well executed both good, if cheaply made then box locks, win.

All actions when well made can be good guns and can give a lifetime of service. What I have purchased and used over a lifetime of shooting vintage side by sides has run from field grade box locks, American and Foreign, then onto side locks (American and Foreign) trigger plate actions going up in quality over time. Today, my best seven guns are side-locks (because I can now afford them), my rainy day guns are box locks and a French trigger plate.

old colonel2,

Copying an engineering design does not make the design great engineering. No doubt the Purdey and H&H gun designs are good ones on their own merit, and have proven themselves over time. They are infarct the pinical of Brit traditional Side Lock engineering design along with Westly Richards. The L.C. Smith is a completely different Side Lock engineering design, also the pinical of USA Side Lock engineering design. I recommend you watch Master Gun maker Nick Makinson's L.C. Smith video I posted above, and watch how he explains the L.C. Smith engineering design as he takes a gun apart and reassembles it on film. No easy task.
Nick was one of the foremost Master Gun Makers in the world, his opinion and Deweys are quite different, and for sound engineering reason. Granted the L.C. Smith Side Lock engineering design is not British traditional, and the Brit gun writers made up all kinds of false hoods about it, L.C. Smith threatened their side lock Brit gun sale, here in the USA from the very start. L.C. Smith invented their own side lock engineering design, they did not copy any Euro gun design, to sell to the American sporting public. Many gun makes tried to purchase the right to manufacturer the engineering gun design, L.C. Smith/Hunter Arms denied them access to their engineering designs, but allowed certain companies to use their triggers and a modified Brown Rotary Bolt, in Box Lock guns. Although equal to the Brit and German Best side lock, the engineering design is completely different. L.C. Smith guns need no tune up every season and come with no instructions to due so, as the Brit guns do. The Brown Rotary Bolt engineering is the best ever engineered and using the correct shells for the guns, the L.C. Smith guns never shoot loose. Seldom if ever does the side lock engineering fail to work properly at even over 100 years old. Many thousands of L.C. Smith guns were sold and used, and they are still available even today. Bird hunters prize the American made gun in all different grades, Grouse hunters own and use many sub-gauge L.C. Smith guns even today.
Most of these guns are over 100 years old and still function perfectly.

L.C. Smith Americas Best - John Houchins and Nick Makinson watch Nicks video and read Johns Legend Lives book, and learn the truth about L.C. Smith double guns.
Pick up Bill Brophys 2 Great L.C. Smith books and also invest in the L.C. Smith Production Records book by James Stubbendieck. All further the L.C. Smith education.
Nobody knows everything about the history of L.C. Smith guns, these books and video will start you down the right path.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Joined: 17 Jan 2014 Posts: 1381 Location: Denver, Colorado

[url=https://imgur.com/yfLeZIm]

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The "Wall of Elsies" for sale at Mid-South Guns in Wagram, South Carolina. I'm guessing it's even bigger now (as this was a few years ago).

[url=https://imgur.com/EPrl69H]

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I have owned, hunted with (and even sold) LC Smith shotguns since I was just a little shaver in NW Pennsylvania in the 1960s, and they still hold a special place in my heart. They were a very good place to start for me, but I don't even own one now. My 5lb14 Brummy boxlock 16-bore has been my go-to upland bird gun for the last fourteen years and I doubt if I'll ever be looking at another American double shotgun again. For value, weight, balance, and overall function I'm not sure how you could begin to improve upon it.

We all hunt for our own reasons, nostalgia being a large part of that for many of us. Arrive at whatever version works for you and then be grateful that you've found it in time to enjoy it for however-many years you get to do so.

Joined: 12 Sep 2010 Posts: 1973 Location: Maine

That's a fun store, Lloyd.

For anyone who's never been there, it's definitely worth the trip out into the middle of nowhere, a village that's a wide spot on the road, next to a Shell station.

Also, while in that neighborhood, if you look carefully you can find some totally mind-melting barbeque. The kind of place where you know it's good because the pit guy is WELL over 300. Follow the smoke.