16ga.com ~ View topic

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

opinions please...I've been looking for a nice english 16
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/community/gun_inventory/inventory/owatonna/english_sg/303939_ws700_owa.jsp?hierarchyId=11655

The gun has only 2" of drop. That is not much, most will see the whole rib and have a really high shooter.

It has very short LOP...short stock. Too short for most.

Also Cabelas is usually high priced...overpriced. If you insist, offer them considerably less, particularly this time of year!

I had a chance to but a Lang (English) boxlock 16 for $1650 on an internet site. I passed it up because it ahd only 1-7/8" drop.

Six months later, I saw the same gun, identified by serial number, at Cabelais in Minnesota...priced at $3450!!!!

Mike

Member Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Posts: 989 Location: Las Vegas

Same thoughts. The gun is short with a pad and spacer. Also, choked IC and IC makes for a nice skeet gun but not suited for very well for most upland.

Matt

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

While youre at it check out this one...but its a bit out of my price range dang it!
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/community/gun_inventory/inventory/boise/english_sg/577103_cogswell16_boi.jsp?hierarchyId=11655

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

Yer right abouyt the chokes..but I like high shooters

Jig, take your time and get exactly what you want!

Can't tell you how many guns I've bought that needed just a little bit to get into my perferred territory! Costs money, and often a waste of time! Mike

Jig, you now have a gun that shoots very well for you in your Citori models. Use that knowledge to guide you to any double. Most post WWII SxS doubles will have similar stock measurements. A 28 inch barreled model will shoot to pretty much the same POI and will swing about the same too if the barrels are regulated correctly. Same for an auto or pump.

My Model 37, Beretta 409/410 model, and my AyA Matador have very similar stock configurations as my 16 gauge Citori Lightnings and Superlights. I have no problem going from gun to gun if I just give myself a little time to adjust my swing speed and agressiveness to the slightly different barrel dynamics of each gun. A round or twp of skeet is usually enough.

For all of them, my eye is right in the sweet spot on the comb. The only other thing I have working for me is a very solid shooting form from years and years of practice with guns that fit me well. I've never shot much with ill fitting guns, so I've managed to avoid many of the bad shooting habits a poorly fitting gun causes except in one case, a trap gun that had too sharp a comb. I stayed with it too long, and that mistake gave me a flinching habit I've managed to finally lick after nearly a decade of dealing with it (I hope). Going from gun to gun does not disturb me if the LOP and drop to comb and heel are close enought to suit me, and if the comb is comfortably rounded enough to put the hollow of my cheek on.

I learned to shoot with a Remington 1100. I can still shoot one like it had eyes, because it fits me like a glove. When Remington designed the stocks for the 870 pump back in the early 1950's (same design as the 1100), they did an extensive ergonomic study and issued try stocks to many accomplished shooters across the nation. They took several years to do this. The stock they came up with out of all that study fitted most average early post WWII adult American males very well. It was uncanny how well the guns seemed to fit everyone. Within a few years, every major US maker and many foriegn ones were copying Remingtons stock dimensions fairly closely. Those same dimensions are still used with a slightly longer LOP to adjust to today's slightly taller average male. I fit right into the early post WWII average size bracket. In fact, they could have used me as the model.

That is why it was so easy for me to become a very solid wingshot. My gun just naturally fitted me perfectly. This was proven the first time I had an expert stock maker measure me and fit a try stock to me. The dimensions were identical to my 1100 factory stock. It was a revelation I've never forgotten--a real eye opener. I used that knowledge to choose a small framed Citori as my first O/U. That gun still shoots as well or better for me as my 1100, because the stock is so close as to be identical for all practical purposes.

So now, based on my own experience, I always advocate that a new shooter or maybe one that is having trouble finding a comfortable and accurate shotgun to go get fitted out. I was just plain dumb lucky. For a lot of folks, it does not work out as easily. During that fitting, and if your man is really an expert, you will not only get fitted, but he will show you the right way to mount a gun.

If you've been compensating with bad form due to a poor fitting stock, you will also have a revelation if you don't argue but listen and learn. If you have any doubts, then go to several. Sooner or later, the truth will seep in. A stock that fits well guides you to good form, and a bad one causes you to compensate and learn bad shooting habits.

However, in your case, the mystery of gun fit seems to have been solved. Use the knowledge. This goes for anyone. If you have a gun that shoots very well and very consistantly for you, you probably already have the key to good gun fit right in your hands. Measure it and use the knowledge to acquire other guns you intend to shoot a lot. It makes thing so much simpler. If the shoe fits...! Wink

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

16gg,
You sure are a long winded guy. Wink

I have a heck of a time typing more than a few lines, plus my two fingers get tired. Laughing

Member Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 446 Location: Wisconsin

DO NOT let the 'New Gun Syndrome' get you!
There are LOTS of guns out there. Better to do your homework and first identify what type of 16 you want, study about the makers or maker and then view/handle/shoot a few BEFORE making any decision. Brit guns are a whle different ball game and you had best understand Brit Proof Marks and choke marking.
As others have stated for this prticular gun, short LOP and recoil pad are big negatives.-Dick

Dave, finding a gun that fits well and shoots well for a newer shooter is a mystery to many of them. This is also true for quite a few folks who have shot for years but never have had the pleasure of owning a gun that fits them well. Some of these folks are fairly good shots, but they constantly struggle at it. It does not have to be so difficult.

All I'm attempting to do is remove some of the mystery. I can't do that in just a few words. Perhaps sharing my experiences, telling my story so to speak, and filling in some background will help some folks along the way. Telling how I came by my knowledge gives it provenance--proof of verasity.

As for typing, I too use fewer than the recommended number of fingers. I never had the opportunity of attending a typing course, so I just go like hell with what I do have. Luckily, I have a keyboard that fits me Laughing

Bud, what should the short folks do? Should they buy an English double with a stock way too long for them? Why not flip that view. If a shorter stocked English gun with a recoil pad is discounted because of being so, why not shop for one. The short statured gent will get a gun that fits him better and will save money too. Wink

Besides, I don't often listen to English opinions on things American. They tend to have opinions on everything. Perhaps that is why we tossed them the hell out in the 1780's. They tried the same malarky in Ireland and also got booted out of there for their troubles. the Scots are now fixing to. Laughing

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

It may seem short to you, but take into consideration that my Browning XS Skeet's LOP is 13 1/8! with an oh so cool parallel comb that is sooo comfortable, and puts my eye in the right place. I think I have my 16GA Sterly figured out too. Last night I ripped off the ill fitting leather lace up comb height adjuster, went down to the store and bought some mole hair rectangles for shooes. Came home and place these strategically on the comb at face. They are self adhering and feel great on the face. Also, they are about and 1/8th" thick so you can experiment and place one on top of the other until it is right for you. I feel its a great and inexpensive way to alter a collectable, American classic without damaging it. I am only 5'7" with very short arms. I had my XS fitted and now know my ideal LOP. As for drop at heel, that still remains somewhat of a mystery to me since I shot a 12GA superposed lightning with an LOP of 14" and DAH of 2 1/2" just as well (immediately on first hunt) as the shorter and flatter XS Skeet. I didnt have time to make any adjustments to the super, but managed to kill the first 12 roosters I met with it. The only other difference between the two was rib height, as the rib on the XS is quite a bit higher than on the super. Could be that the higher rib on the XS mimicks more drop at heel than it actually has. Or, that maybe drop at face was very similar between the two which maybe the more important spec for me.

Jig, another approach is to use a piece of the closed cell foam packing sheets. they are also about 1/8 inch thick. you can apply them with some two sided carpet tape. Works like a charm, can be layered, then covered with one layer of the mole skin. This is how I tamed that sharp combed 101 Diamond grade trap gun. Before doing so, shooting that monstrosity was like getting judo chopped in the chops with every pull of the trigger. I finally sold it off to one of the local ATA members who just had to have it and got a Perazzi TMX with a nicely rounded, adjustable comb. That gun shoots like a lamb.

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

Geez, I just had a possible revealing thought after reading about the itaca 27 on the guns for sale threads: I also used to own a model 37 and it was the best gun I ever shot clays with up to that point. In fact, it accounted for my first 25/25 in trap. And, I don't think I ever shot less than 20/25 with it - owned it 2 years but beat the crap out of it and then I traded it to an unscrupulous pawnbroker in a deal that i finally came out ahead of the a%%hole on (I dont even think it worked at that point). This significance for all this rambling is that the gun's DAH was 2 1/2! The super was 2 1/2 and though the XS is only 1 1/2 or so with its parallel comb and high rib, I will bet that the Drop at face is similar on all 3. May be on to something here - gonna go measure the drop at face of the xs and see. Problem is I don't know the DAF of the other guns - will try and find out though. I will bet thst if I take a measurement of the XS and place the straight edge on the high portion of the rib (the 1 1/2" drop was measured from the front of the rib closest to the receiver where its tapered almost totally flat) that I will get at least 2" of drop at face, instead of the 1 1 /2" hmmmm....

Member Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Posts: 989 Location: Las Vegas

jig: You can also go to the browning web site and get the XS Skeet measurements.

Matt

These are really nice, solid, well built and reliable and I have had probably a dozen or so of them over the gun shop years. If you yourself are short and/or like a short length of pull, it is a good gun. You can get those 1 1/2" traditional solid rubber pads off of Galazan's, and take it out to 14 3/8-14 1/2 with a discreet black spacer of 1/4 " or so if it is too short. The stock can easily be bent down to give you more drop if needed. A lot of guys think those longer orange pads are butt ugly, but I have one om my Model 21 and I don't mind it at all. Now, price..... I think the gun is high, like some of these other guys do. I like the open chokes, should serve you with 90% of shooting, the tightest choke I use is IC anyhow,so if it were mine, I'd open the right bore up to skeet 1! Anyhow, if you can get it for $500 less, and don't mind tweaking it to fit you, go for it.... they really are nice, and on a true 16 ga. frame..... and they are built TOUGH! That gun appears to be a late 50's early 60's gun and will be solid.....shortly after that time period, quality dropped off a little.

In 2000 I would have sold this gun for $2500-$2700, but the dollar is weak, and prices have gone up a lot, so $3200 to $3400 is not out of line.....a fair market value....