16ga.com ~ View topic - Model 12 -vs- Ithaca 37

Joined: 09 Dec 2012 Posts: 691

Without having to try and search through all the back posts, can anyone give a subjective comparison between the Ithaca 37 and a Model 12. I am interested in a real side by side comparison by someone who has owned them both.

16 gauge 2 3/4" of course.

I am curious and in the future might move some guns down the road and expand beyond my Ithaca 37s. Now the Ithacas I have do everything that I could possibly want them to, from looking good to being able to hunt anything as one of the ones that I have is a Vent Rib Choke Tube model. Besides my wife's, I have 2 post 855,000 guns myself, 1 with the CT VR 26" barrel, one with a 28" VR MOD choked barrel, as well as a 1949 solid rib gun that has a rare 26" VR CT barrel from King Ferry cut with the old style threads. It has been fitted to the 1949 receiver. The rest of mine are pre-855,000's with 28" MOD barrels, except for the one currently getting a 26" Imp-Cyl barrel fitted to it, to pair up with the poly-choke barrel.

I also have a couple of the rare side saddle scope mounts used to put a scope on an Ithaca without drilling holes, they use existing holes. So I could use the 26" CT VR barrel to hunt turkey.

I don't shoot trap or any exercises such as that as a hand injury prevents more than a few shots in a row, so only hunting and looking good (and something new to work on) is any consideration.

(I cannot hold O/U's nor SXS's due to not being able to bend my wrist correctly so I am relegated to using pumps) plus I really like the Ithacas.

Thanks in advance !

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1843 Location: Central ND

I have both a Model 12 16 ga. with a 25 1/4" barrel and a Model 37 with a 28" barrel. Neither have been modified.

Both function flawlessly.

Both are well made but I like the work on the Model 12. The trigger is nicer and the action is smoother and overall the Winchester just 'feels' solid.

The Model 12 weighs 6 lbs. 12 oz. The Model 37 weighs 6 lbs. 4 oz.

The Model 12 balances 2" back from the end of the receiver or nearly the mid point of the ejection port. The Model 37 balances almost exactly at the end of the receiver.

For me, I will pick up the Ithaca before I pick up the Winchester because of the balance point. The Winchester feels great until I shoot it and than that 'solid feel' goes away and it becomes whippy. Please understand that is my opinion others may love the feel of the Model 12, I am just not all that excited about it.

My 2 cents from the cheap seats.

Joined: 09 Dec 2012 Posts: 691

Thank you.

That is exactly what I needed to hear. It might just turn out to be better to stay with what I have.

You know a trick that I have taught other folks that I picked up working on nuclear missile parts is to put some plain old white toothpaste, thinned down with gun oil, cooking oil, just not water, and stuck in the working areas inside the receiver rails, then cycled will smooth actions out.

I used to do this with S&W revolvers. Stone off the burrs on the corners, then pack and cycle the action. It smooths without removing lots of metal. Takes off the high points as plain old white toothpaste is mildly abrasive.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1843 Location: Central ND

Yeah, but IMHO lapping the sliding surfaces inside the receiver isn't going to make the Model 37 feel like a Model 12. The Model 12 is 'tighter', using a lapping compound on the model 37 won't make it feel as smooth as the Model 12, because the clearances are already a bit loose. The Model 12 doesn't have any stamped parts in it they are all machined and fit. The Model 37 is made with stamped metal pieces much like an 870. They work and last a long time but......

The trigger mechanism in the Model 37 is a bit crude compared to the Model 12. Maybe something could be done about it but for me it isn't a big issue.

I'd still take the Model 37 over the Model 12 because I can hit what I am looking at.

Joined: 09 Dec 2012 Posts: 691

Depends on which parts are stamped or machined. The bolt, not stamped, rides in the cutouts. The ejector arms, while stamped, pivot on machined bolt ends through machined holes. The feed arms, while stamped, pivot on a machined shoulder screw or that push pin (later models).

There is a quite a bit of improvement that can be done. The one spot that can't really be improved upon is the slide handle and its drag on the magazine tube. There are raised nubs inside the tube, which is why you get the marks until the nubs wear all the way down and then larger areas start dragging.

I have worked on lots of them. All my guns (I have 12 37's, all but 2 are 16 ga), the other 2 are 12's, 1 a Deerslayer II with a fixed rifled barrel and 1 with a field barrel/deerslayer combo.

I did just find a write-up that said the Model 12 parts were all hand fitted. That would really contribute to the smoothness.

A good cleaning with gunsmith in a can, you know brake cleaner does wonders for an Ithaca 37. Take the buttstock off first though.

Your answers caused me to go looking why it was smoother, and that was a good thing.

So once again thank you. I am starting to research and learn about the model 12.

I am building myself a cool Ithaca with a steel buttplate I just received and a metal grip cap. Both will be blued. I also have a reproduction of the old Winchester Red stock oil (I know a source), so I am going to do the wood with that and I have a buddy that blues shotguns for me for $50.00 as long as all the polishing is done.

I was thinking about the Model 12 and doing something similar. I found a source of new, cut checkered wood that is really reasonable. I think a highly polished model 12 with a Winchester Red hand rubbed oil finish would be a cool gun.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1843 Location: Central ND

I have had my 37 for 10 or so years. I have had it completely apart twice, once when I first got it and once about 6 months ago. So it's clean and lubricated. It's slick enough but smooth? It ain't ever gonna be smooth. Kinda like an 870, slick as snot but smooth? I guess in a floppy doppy sorta way but not smoooooooooth like a Model 12 that's like a fine bourbon!!
Very Happy

Joined: 09 Dec 2012 Posts: 691

The Model 12 was designed to be hand fitted. When I was in my late teens, early 20's I was a tool maker, before I started writing software for big businesses. I once built a progessive stamping die to stamp out electrical terminals all toleranced to +- .0003. Because I ground everything and really didn't use tolerances, it went together with that preciseness that comes from hand fitting.

In the process of being hand fitted, the parts of a Model 12 are honed, stoned, filed and deburred. That process is what you are describing as what you feel. Once I found the write up of how they were made I understood.

You can make the Ithaca 37 a really smooth, quick nice feeling action, but it won't compare to a design that had the hand fitting in mind and process from the beginning.

Go out on Youtube and watch the videos that are out there by Purdey and the other double gun builders. You can see hand fitting being done.

Labor costs got to the point that the average American wouldn't be able to afford the design.

Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 1310 Location: Western WA

Dave,

Having been a M12 shooter for over a half century compared to a few seasons with the M37, my response might be skewed, but I see no comparison between the two. The M12 is the superior firearm. Yes it is much smoother, but it is also a better shooter because of its weight distribution, which is laid out closer around the center of gravity than the M37.

The M12 is more practical in the field due to the ready access to the bolt and breech in case of jams and ammo failures. Yes the M37 might stay cleaner inside the action, but dirt and crud could still find its way inside.

Having said that, I might grant that the M37 could be as enjoyable as the M12 simply because of its light weight and easy carrying. I totally embrace shooting it at the range, as it has a unique feel. Could I live with M37 as my primary arm? Absolutely. But side by side, the M12 easily gets the nod.

Now, let’s flip things around. If I were you, I would stick with your M37s. I firmly believe there becomes an instinctive bond of trust between the man and his firearm that grows over time and emerges under the most urgent and critical circumstances, and is not easily transferred. This bond not only influences shooting effectiveness, but also your awareness, endurance, and safety. Let your M37 become an integral part of your whole shooting experience and you will not be disappointed.

V/R
B.

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

I’ve owned both designs for a long time. I wouldn’t argue one design is better than the other, with the possible exception that anyone who has spent considerable time with a different design of pump gun will find the safety is in the wrong place on a model 12. If you only owned or shot model 12s, this likely wouldn’t be an issue. I seem to shoot either design fairly well, but change my style when shooting trap with the model 37, I do not pump the gun after shooting my bird, and when my turn comes around, I load one in the magazine, cycle the action, and call for my bird. The model 12 allows for the action to sit open and a round loaded and the action closed at the shot. Not everyone likes both designs. As far as pump shotguns go, the Mossberg 500 seems to have superior ergonomics, lockup, and design to anything else I have handled. It isn’t as pretty as the Winchester or the Ithaca.
The Ithaca, like the Remington 17 before it, was ALWAYS a 2 3/4” gun. Do not take this lightly. The 2 1/2” chambered model 12 16 gauge guns will have problems cycling 2 3/4” ammunition, period. In my experience, this trait carried on for some time after Winchester went to modern, 2 3/4” chambers. Much ink has been spilled describing the modifications to fix this issue, but the very best way is to deal with it is to simply avoid it, and buy a gun that had 2 3/4” chambers to start with, be it the Winchester or the Ithaca.
Owning an example of both is a great way to discover which one works better for you. I believe that is really the only way you would answer your own questions, Dave.

Best,
Ted

Joined: 09 Dec 2012 Posts: 691

Thanks to all. In the short time that I started this, I found some threads like this over on SGW but none had the depth of discussion that we are doing here. The real pertinent points are being covered, brought up and discussed in this thread. So far
in less than 24 hours I have learned:

1. the M12 is a hand fitted firearm, and has the close tolerance, "bank vault" smooth feel such brings to the table

2. the safety on the M12 is not in as reachable, convenient a spot as the Ith 37

3. the point of balance is slightly different between the 2

4. the M12 was initially designed around the shorter version of the 16ga shell (we are talking 16ga's here) so a later model after the bugs of the redesign is more desirable,

What I have to offer is the Ith 37 is very susceptible to issues when the Lt & Rt shell holders are worn/out of adjustment/get bent somehow

This, plus a redesign of the magazine tube (which the folks at the Ohio plant are prone to exasperate) is responsible for the Ith 37 to not feed, or dump the shells on the floor.

I actually machined an insert to correct this on a magazine tube that I installed on the gun I put together for my wife.

If anyone needs an in-depth talk about this, just say. My guns feed flawlessly. I did have one that didn't feed so I had to adjust the left side (pivoting) shell holder.

Member Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 3438 Location: Illinois

Ford/Chevy.Both have their pros and cons.

This isn't going to help. But....

I really like both guns, have had multiples of both...hunted them alot.

The Model 12 in a 12ga is not my favorite shotgun, but in 16ga it's a unique experience. Really a wonderful shotgun. And a dependable workhorse.

The Model 37 in 12ga is a nice gun that will knock your teeth out, but in 16ga it does everything a 12ga does, but in a nimble, light package. And simplicity! The 37 is just a genius of simplicity....but you know all this because your already hooked! Haha.

IMO....if you want the absolute best of both of these, get a Remigton Model 31, not the not the lightweight L model, the classic steel model, and in 16ga...
You'll get the beautiful Takedown style of the Ithaca, the side ejection and smooth action of the Model 12 (way smoother) and probably the best ergonomics of any pump. The slide handle is about one inch closer to the reciever than either the 12 or the 37, the stock keeps the lines and measurements of the model 12, and the trigger....oh boy...like a crisp kit kat candy bar....snap!

There are 3 models, very similar, but different enough to need them to be handled...
First model has a very unique Takedown system, limits barrels unbelievably....like unobtanium rare....
Second model is my favorite....has the stock dimensions and trigger assembly of the first model, which is the reason you need to handle all 3 models...but this model has a much improved Takedown system, probably the best I've ever seen. Also allows the use of other barrels much easier, they may need to be "fit" but generally not, and you can find barrels with a little searching.
Third model has a totally different style stock and trigger layout, it's quite nice, I really liked it until I found a 2nd model. Barrels are pretty easy to exchange, plus they made the L series in this 3rd model as well, and all those parts interchange no problem. I had an L series in 16ga...my first 31...why I sold it is beyond me, however, I have seen cracked recievers, and often enough I won't buy one now.
I had a fabulous mint 20ga 31L...but I just couldn't get comfortable with the aluminum. Today's Benelli UL etc are a different aluminum mix, much perfected.
Early aluminum recievers from EVERYBODY those wartime/postwar years...no sir, not for my money.

Does this help? Heck no. Not at all.

Do you need a Remington 31? Heck yes!

Joined: 09 Dec 2012 Posts: 691

The whole reason behind this is to build myself another "nice" gun. I am in the process of doing such with an Ithaca 37. I have acquired a steel butt plate to fit, getting a steel grip cap, that when both are fit, are going to be polished and blued.

Then the stock is going to get finished in the old Winchester red oil, and the bluing salts that my buddy uses makes a mirror deep dark blue black when the gun is highly polished. I have one that is mirror polished (I polish metal good, from my days in the shops before writing software) and one that I recreated that patterns that Ithaca used from the factory. I have to redo the mirror polished barrel, I ruined the bluing trying to blacken the rib studs. Once another gun comes back in another week or 2 from getting a barrel fitted to it, I will polish that receiver and take the parts to get blued. Then I will decide which one will get the royal treatment. I am thinking the 1951 with Simmons Rib, that originally was a FULL choke, but I measured it, and it is a Improved Modified, having been opened up.

I have done the old fashioned hand rubbed oil finish on my higher end single shot rifles. I am want to do the same with a shotgun

or 2. Notice the 2.

Hence the interest in the Model 12. It has the looks and the fact that it is a 16 built on a 20 frame is a plus. Add in the fact that I found a source of Model 12 wood, with cut checkering for a very reasonable price. actually less that the Ithaca 37 stock that I am going to sell on eBay soon.

I really don't need another gun. I have every hunting scenerio covered with the ones I have. I just have an urge to build a work of art, that I can also take hunting and look good doing it.

Does that make sense ?

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1843 Location: Central ND

More sense than you realize, at least to us crazy people!!

Joined: 13 Apr 2017 Posts: 150

I have both a model 37 and a model 12. Both are excellent. I prefer the Ithaca because of the bottom ejection and the ease of removing and changing barrels. The bottom ejection makes fired shells much easier to find. The Ithaca is slightly lighter.