16ga.com ~ View topic

Joined: 17 Jan 2014 Posts: 1381 Location: Denver, Colorado

This will be mildly off-topic (wrong gauge), but I'm almost certain to get my answer here. I need (I want) a solid, overly-heavy classic doublegun to use at Vintager events to shoot clays. Long-tubed and heavy-weight 12s are something I largely left-behind me in my long search for a more-perfect upland gun, many years ago now. Fast-forward to last week, where my only brother reminded me that he still has a very little-used (ever, it still has lacquer on it's lockplates to protect the case colors) field-grade Smith gun with 30-inch tubes and mod/full chokes in his safe (I don't believe he's ever even shot it). It has no cast and the last time I used it (some 30-years ago now, on doves), I was rather deadly with it. Clays guns have to digest a serious volume of shells in the target fields (5-stand, sporting clays, and trap) and most game-guns do not well-tolerate such hard use. Will an almost 100-year old American workhorse double (such as this one) tolerate extended use as a target gun?

God knows it should weigh enough (it's easily 8 lbs plus). The stock is original and un-cracked and overall, the gun was in remarkable shape the last time I saw it. It would likely be the only American weapon in a field of English and Continental guns if I were to try it.

Lloyd3,

Your Field Grade L.C. Smith was not made for shooting Live Bird Contests in the era it was made, it was considered a hunting gun. It may however hold up to all the Clays shooting you might due, however at over 100 years old, I would not use it to shoot Clays contests. You should also have the gun checked out by a knowledgable gun smith before using it. What you need is a L.C. Smith #5 or Pigeon Gun, they were made for shooting live bird contests, and I shoot mine today on Clays all the time. I do not recommend shooting Clays games with a Field Grade L.C. Smith gun simply because of the age of the gun. All that being said, I know men who shoot Clays with their Field Grade guns, even though I tell them not to due it. I recommend RST shells be used in the Classic American double guns, when hunting or practicing shooting Clays. L.C. Smith made guns for different purposes, if you want to shoot Clays I recommend using the guns engineered for shooting Pigeon contests in their era. There were also Long Ranger guns built in almost every L.C. Smith Grade for Duck & Goose hunting, if your gun is a Field Grade Long Ranger and in good shape, shooting Clays should be no problem. The Long Ranger ident will be stamped on the gun.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Joined: 17 Jan 2014 Posts: 1381 Location: Denver, Colorado

Thanks Dave! It would likely have to digest the standard 2 3/4-inch target loads I buy at the various ranges here. They're not overly stout (I try to stick with the 1-ounce stuff) but they do tend to really belt you in lighter guns. After 100 rounds you'll be feeling it.

Lloyd3,

With the light loads your 2 3/4" Chambered gun should have little problem, however I still always recommend the L.C. Smith guns that were made for Pigeon shooting, be used for shooting Clays on a repeat basis.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

I’d factor in the cost of the gun plus any choke modifications you might want for clays work. Then add the cost or work to glass the stock head and double check the inletting of the lock plates. Chamber length need updating or reloading 2.5” if needed? Still in?

Shooting clays at what volume? 1000 rds a year of 1oz or better even 7/8oz loads @ 1200 fps? I’d say yes. 5000 plus per year, then how many years do you think you want out of the gun?

If you’re talking two vintage shots a year and a few rounds prior to each for practice, that’s not that much shooting. A properly prepared vintage gun that is inspected occasionally should be up for that kind of work, even an Elsie Wink

Sounds like the gun fits you, or did a few years back, so that’s in your favor.

Joined: 17 Jan 2014 Posts: 1381 Location: Denver, Colorado

Well, it boils down to having a gun that never gets used or having it slowly get somewhat used-up over time. Safe queens are interesting to look at but...it seems a shame to never use such a gun. I don't suspect that I'll be shooting it enough to cause it any real problems, but Dave is right, the pigeon guns or even the long-rangers would be better suited for the use I'm contemplating.

16er: Absolutely, and the cost here for me will be negligible (no choke work should be necessary, just a cinch-on pad for length as before). For the amount of actual use the gun will likely get (5 to 10 rounds of clay shooting a year tops) I'd think it would survive admirably-well. When I think of how hard I used one as a teenager in nowhere Pennsylvania, this one's life will be pampered by comparison.

Lloyd3,

If your gun was properly stored and taken care of, shooting like you described should not be a problem. L.C. Smith/Hunter Arms guns were engineered to a very high standard, if the gun was not abused, it should be able to shoot clays for another few life times. Because of the guns age, I recommend the Pigeon or #5 gun for shooting Clays. Many many L.C. Smith guns were abused and have problems because of the abuse, proper use of an L.C. Smith gun has never damaged them, they came with a life time guarantee, because of the quality of the guns. Our family guns have been passed down the many generations, none have cracked stocks, or are damaged in any other way. Only the abused guns end up being repaired, and usually by a gun smith that does not have the talent, or the education to work on the guns. If you want to know more about the L.C. Smith guns, I recommend you purchase the Double Gun Videos L.C. Smith Sidelock Shotgun video with Master Gun Maker Nick Makinson, Nick knew more about the L.C. Smith guns than any modern Gun Smith, he was an expert on L.C. Smith double guns, no other Gun Smith even cames close to his expertise or knowledge, when it came to L.C. Smith guns. Part of his video is on the Web for all to educated themselves on. Few modern gun smiths have the talent to work on L.C. Smith guns, even after watching Nick demonstrate how the work is actually done.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Our L.C. Smith Pigeon Gun, a great double gun to shoot Clays with!

Joined: 09 Aug 2007 Posts: 444 Location: WI

I'd recommend an LC Smith Trap Grade. They were made for the game.

Member Joined: 30 Nov 2011 Posts: 1698 Location: Minnesota

My understanding of all of the American double gun makers whether Elsies,Fox, Ithacas is that there is no difference in the quality of the metallurgy,lockwork, etc between field grades and any graded guns. The age of the wood is what we have to worry about and therefore use only lower velocity and payload ammo. Am I wrong? Just put over 100 7/8 oz reloads through my !925 Elsie 16ga at the Medford shoot Friday. Enjoy the heck out of that gun but would never consider it for full time high volume shooting. Ditto for my 1940 12ga field grade.

Joined: 26 Nov 2020 Posts: 33

nj gsp,
Yes the trap grade guns were another of the L.C. Smith special grade guns made for actual trap shooting. As a regular Clays gun they will tend to shoot a little high, because they were engineered that way for shooting the trap rising Clay, you are correct however in the fact they were definitely made for repeat shooting on a longevity basis.

Although all L.C. Smith guns were made to the same high quality standards with their metals, after 1913 when there was more machine work done on the guns, a lot less hand fit and finish work was done for the guns to remain competitive cost wise. The incredible hand fit and finish work on the early guns, made the #5 gun and the Pigeon Grade guns, super high quality L.C Smith guns. The difference in the high quality Walnut woods is also seen, toward the end of L.C. Smith production, especially in the Marlin era guns.

Lloyd3,
Not to worry sir, if you take care of your L.C. Smith gun and shoot the proper loads out of it, you will never damage the gun. No such thing as using up an L.C. Smith gun, the quality engineering was built into the L.C. Smith guns, from the very beginning. They came with a life time guarantee/warranty to the original owner! If used properly and not abused, Hunter Arms would either fix or replace the gun, during the original purchasers life time. No modern gun has ever had the same kind of warranty.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

L.C. Smith/Hunter Arms #5 Gun, the stuff dreams are made of! Passed down thru generations!

Member Joined: 30 Nov 2011 Posts: 1698 Location: Minnesota

Thanks Steve, You were pretty much on fire with your Isides too. DDG might be interesting. Wink

Lloyd: enthusiastic hyperbole aside (and the Trap Grade is just a grade no different than the other non-LRWF post-1913 Smith guns) the Alexander Brown designed guns date to 1883 (hammer) and 1886 (hammerless) and DO have a design defect.
Scroll down here under "Maintenance and Restoration"
https://lcsca.clubexpress.com/content.aspx?page_id=274&club_id=43784
to
Are L.C. Smith stocks predisposed to cracks?
How can I prevent cracks at the head of the stock and around the lock plates of my L.C. Smith?
and under "General Information"
Is my shotgun safe to shoot?

Here's the problem-inadequate wood surface at the head of the stock to absorb recoil

[url=https://drewhause.smugmug.com/LC-Smith/Design-Engineering/i-bm2THX5/A]

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leading to cracks which extend to the rear of the lockplate inlets

[url=https://drewhause.smugmug.com/LC-Smith/Design-Engineering/i-DpBQ8B9/A]

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SO it is prudent to have the stock removed and checked by a Smith specialist for cracks. And if the gun is to be used for high volume target shooting, glas bed the head of the stock or cyanoacrylate impregnate the wood.

That said, my extremely well used 1906 Smith is used regularly for recreational skeet (with 7/8 oz. loads because of my flinch) and has no cracks.

Joined: 17 Jan 2014 Posts: 1381 Location: Denver, Colorado

Thankyou Dr. Drew. Yes, most of the ones you run across do have that crack. Is that more of a post-1913 problem?

IMHO yes. It has been suggested that Hunter Arms switched to American Walnut at some point but I don't know if that is the explanation.

Hunter Arms DID recognize they had a problem and at least by the 30s the stock head had a bit more wood - a 1938 FW

[url=https://drewhause.smugmug.com/LC-Smith/Design-Engineering/i-g4cQxXw/A]

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BTW liquid epoxy impregnation is another option, but of course existing cracks must first be repaired and, in general, oil must be removed from the head of the stock first

[url=https://drewhause.smugmug.com/LC-Smith/Design-Engineering/i-gX8X62X/A]

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I'm a Smith guy, but to enjoy the guns requires understanding potential problems.